|
Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Jul 17, 2007 4:54:42 GMT
Ty's remarks were pretty spot on, in my opinion. The fact that we put it there has nothing to do with whether it's an eploit. Carrying that definition to it's logical conclusion would mean that NOTHING was an exploit. And, in point of fact, they predate all of the current builders, so WE did not put them there. Nor does the fact that we prefer to script around exploits, and that we haven't done so yet, make it not an exploit - it just means that we haven't yet scripted around it, as the problem hasn't been apparent until now. It just means that you won't be punished for it, as seems only right. Put another way, total cheese (to borrow a phrase). Funky Ah. I did not know they predated the current builders or were from the original mod. However - what do you see as an exploit, then? How do you define it? I agree that carrying a bazillion stones is reminiscent of limburgher. It definately makes things easier. But, its using an in game item to achieve the effect it was created for - bringing you back to life. That isn't an exploit to me. To me, an exploit, is breaking the game. Like the wall push. You're taking advantage of a problem with the GAME ENGINE to do something that you should not otherwise be able to do in game - which is magically push your way through a locked door without opening it. Its doing something outside what should be possible. I don't see any difference between carrying a lot of rebirth stones, and carrying a beaker on each character, as a matter of *function*. Both make things easier. Imagine if beakers didn't exist. You wouldn't call someone stocking up on 100 heal potions an exploiter, even though having them made things easier on the person and the party. Same with res packs. No one's said that having either of those items diminishes the party role of druids and clerics. And you know as well as I do that before Hells came out, party healer as a role did not exist on the mod, because those two items in stores entirely removed the need for a party healer in the module as it was then configured. Is that cheese? Is that an exploit by your definition? Same with stocking up on SHADOW PACKS. They're not store bought, they're a lot more powerful than storebought potions, and you can only get them by farming. Once upon a time, a good strategy was to farm up shadow packs for use in ssithrak against horrid wiltings. Made you all completely immune to something you had no other defense for. No one said that was an exploit. No one said it detracted from classes that cast shadow shield form memory. Heck, Sorcerers were encouraged to drop shadow shield entirely since they could get it from potions. By DMs, I might add. As a matter of functionality, what is the difference between farming shadow packs and using them to make your run easier, and farming rebirth stones and using them to make your run easier? Their usefulness is only a matter of degree. How about stocking up on the greater restoration potions that you can find if you look hard enough? Using those allows shifters to restore while shifted. No other item around can do that, and it gets around what could be interpreted as a solid class detriment. Is that an exploit in your eyes, Funky? Is it any less an "exploit" by your definition to UMD the crit immunity ring to avoid crit hits entirely as a dexer? Or is that an intelligent use of a class skill you put skillpoints into?? I don't see exploitation in these cases. I see using the tools that the module provides. Exploiting is a BAD thing to accuse people of. It should be reserved for those who try to break the game engine in an effort to do what should otherwise not be possible. That said: I do think rebirth stones remove a lot of risk when used in large numbers. I know I'm sloppier with my cleric lately than my tank, and knowing I'll flash gold is *the* reason. Limiting their numbers would re-emphasize the class advantages of those who can, or who have, taken it. Or, as a more extreme note - well, they're more numerous in non-immo areas, only respawn in non-immo areas...seems to me they're intended as a benefit for non-immos. How about make them only work for non-immortals?? That would remove the issue from LL areas and Pillars entirely. And they'd be a nice toy for the intrepid mortals willing to explore and find them. If that option's not chosen, I'd say that making them stack is a bad option. Yes, they couldn't be stored *as easily* but really, I have plenty of planar gems or hellstones around and transfer them easily enough. The reason its a bad option, is that a stack of 10 is just too many to make things dangerous. 5 or less, if a number maximum will be set. But, making them mortal-use-only seems more in line with the use implied by their locations and rates of respawn.
|
|
|
Post by lala on Jul 17, 2007 10:42:38 GMT
I remember when I 1st started playing HG and by the time I could reach the SoR I was "Wow!", really thought I found one of the best items in game and provided a sense of worth exploring. Also when starting out those stones are really handy, and encourages searching for other static loot. With that in mind I prefer them to remain as they are in terms of dropping.
I like the idea being limited to how many you can carry but as the spawn attack focus does not change, 1 is not realistically enough. So simplistic view is that if 1 is not enough, 10 (an example on my part) is probably too many so how about 5? And to help PvP events the extra points make sense. Cheers Lala
|
|
|
Post by khaine on Jul 17, 2007 16:12:22 GMT
I see an exploit as working through a problem by using the properties of an object beyond what they were designed for. Some exploits are accepted as an alternative function, but the thing about the shadow potions is nonsense - they are designed for what people use them for.
I like the idea of activation - farming is rewarded but you can't burn through them, there just a second-chance, and also with random
|
|
|
Post by stonewarrior on Jul 17, 2007 16:38:42 GMT
To suggest our use of the SoR was an exploit is utter nonesense. They have been used for some time now by other players and there have been no problems. They helped keep us on our feet during the initial wave or an absolutely insane mob. They did not however kill any creatures as we still had to do that. Using your logic of the Shadow Potions the SoR were used for the same purpose...to keep people on their feet and alive.
|
|
|
Post by khaine on Jul 17, 2007 17:08:00 GMT
Well, personally I don't you did anything wrong, but thats not my logic at all. I don't see the stones as there to keep you on your feet, I see them as a second chance, so that even if you get very unlucky your not completely boned. Shadow pots are there to protect against static effects. Really, since I don't know the intent I can't say if its an exploit or not, which is why I didn't, xD.
xD.
|
|
|
Post by stonewarrior on Jul 17, 2007 17:19:21 GMT
My apologies to you Khaine for misreading your post.
Peace, John.
|
|
|
Post by khaine on Jul 17, 2007 17:28:15 GMT
Heh, no problem... I was a little tetchy from a ....discussion I had with a friend, in which there were many misunderstandings, and saw it here and raged, xD.
Edit: spellings
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 17, 2007 17:39:59 GMT
However - what do you see as an exploit, then? How do you define it? I agree that carrying a bazillion stones is reminiscent of limburgher. I know it when I see it. ;D Seriously though, it comes down to semantics. Is it an exploit on the order of duping? Of course not. It'd be more accurate to describe it as exploitative use, taking something intended to serve as an aid and using it to effectively circumvent a major limitation/challenge, in this case limboing/death/respawn, to the point where we have to do something about it. As far as the definition of exploit, we've always left it to common sense, because there's a greatly decreased need for notice with our lax punishment policies. Are we calling you cheaters? No. But it was definitely cheesy, call it what you will. Funky
|
|
|
Post by borges on Jul 17, 2007 17:54:19 GMT
Frankly, the issue seems to be that the value of hoarding stones is quite high compared to the small investment that it takes to get them.
For example, our party used probably 12+ biorejuvs during the big fight. No one is suggesting that this is cheesy or an exploit. But if we had somehow amassed 200+ of them and had casters spamming immute and miracle the entire time, the DMs' heads would have exploded.
Limiting supply, rather than the use of the item itself, is another way of addressing the concerns raised in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by cataclysmic on Jul 17, 2007 17:59:58 GMT
Carrying a Stone of Rebirth in ya pocket so a lag spawn doesn't wipe ya, mebbe so ya can be unlucky once, twice, mebbe three times, sure got no problem with it, but carrying 20 to a guild event so ya can run round knowing that if you die you get rezzed automativcally befrore you even hit the groiund....20 times in a row.....imho is cheating. You are using the items in the game to give you an unfair advantage over players who choose not to go farming the server for a hundred stones of rebirth. I don't mean in any way to insult ne1 who does this it is simply the way I see things. They are a handy tool to use, and if I find one on my way round adventuring of course i will keep it and make good use of it, but I will be dammed if I go searching server after server for em, sorry not my style. Be it SoR, Shadow Pots, Moad Seals, DB Loot, Thids loot (including Succour Stones/Biorejuvenators), or what ever it is, we can do it and we can get away with it simply because Funky and the dm team haven't scripted around it or done something else to stop us doing it, in no way does this make it NOT an exploit, simplyt an exploit that hasn't been 'fixed' yet. No one called pushing thru doors an exp[loit or cheating until it was fixed, but that didn't make it not an exploit lol, and it got fixed in the end. Ok I don't go farming because I choose not to, if I want those items I will take level appropriate toons to go to the locations they drop and roll in loot split for em sure, but I wont take an immo n go server hopping to get em. I have never once been to Hell with a SoR, nor have I been to hell yet with more than a 10 pack of shadow pots, I use negs unless Iam usiong shadow shield spell, also the only time I have been to Hell with more than 2 Bio's was because the Thids runs I did before I rolled crap and Bio's were the only decent things left to pick, I think I ended up giving 2 away, using 2 and had one left for my next Hell run, as for Succour Stones I rarely have em, when I do I invariably use em to get workshop tags for my toons. I have still managed to get about 6 Characters tagged in Hell, my Large Shape Bloodfire has even gotten as far as needing Maladomini tag. So please if I, who, as it happens, is not a VET in any way shape or form, isn't that great a player or builder of characters, and do not have oodles of uber gear to back up my not so great characters, can actually build a character and take it as far as Maladomini without farming such things and having bags of em in my inventory please do not try to tell me that those of you who are vets here need em, that would really be too funny. Rant over Cata P.S. And as those of you who have partied with my Shifter and BFM in Hell will know I don't hang back because I don't have these items either, I limboed my BFM 5 times in a row on one Min run because Hama's spawned with Tears and my BFM was the only thing that could take out the tears and I was damned if I was gunna let my party down by being scared of a little magic kb.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 17, 2007 18:17:20 GMT
Frankly, the issue seems to be that the value of hoarding stones is quite high compared to the small investment that it takes to get them. For example, our party used probably 12+ biorejuvs during the big fight. No one is suggesting that this is cheesy or an exploit. But if we had somehow amassed 200+ of them and had casters spamming immute and miracle the entire time, the DMs' heads would have exploded. Limiting supply, rather than the use of the item itself, is another way of addressing the concerns raised in this thread. I sort of agree. The point of rest restrictions however, is to force rationing of rests, to prevent casters from doing it after every fight, forcing them to use their spells more effectively. Biorejuvs help alleviate that, but given the reletive difficulty of getting them, resting is still rationed to an extent. With stones, though, the obstacle overcome is somewhat greater. At the moment I'm considering making the current stones only work for mortals, which is completely in line with their original use, and making new stones that work for immortals as either hard to reach set drops or the upcoming hells consumable rares (probably requiring activation, and having a couple charges once activated). Funky
|
|
|
Post by cataclysmic on Jul 17, 2007 18:55:34 GMT
Well that would certainly make sense game wise since you can't really ressurect an Immo in the real sense, after all they don't die, they are simply knocked unconcious for a while, with the exception of course of Hell and certain LL areas (Thids, Ssithrak) As for a stones that work for Immo's I like the idea of the Hells Consumable loot, since pre Hell they really are unnecessary for any Immortal and I can only see a use for them actually in Hell plus it would make farming them pretty hard. Perhaps an item that once activated allows a player not to auto rez instantly but to escape the risk of Limbo once or twice or maybe for a set amount of time, perhaps upon activation you are truly immortal even in Hell for say 5 minutes? Upon using the item for the fifth time it vanishes or its power is depleted? I am no programmer and have no idea how much scripting or time would be taken to do something like that, just an idea I realise there is a thread for suggestions for hells consumables and will post this there too but put the suggestion here also as I thought it may be relevant
|
|
|
Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Jul 18, 2007 0:51:44 GMT
I see an exploit as working through a problem by using the properties of an object beyond what they were designed for. Some exploits are accepted as an alternative function, but the thing about the shadow potions is nonsense - they are designed for what people use them for. I like the idea of activation - farming is rewarded but you can't burn through them, there just a second-chance, and also with random Its not a nonsense comparison at all. Shadow packs are used for what they are designed to do - protect you against necromancy and negative energy. Stones of Rebirth are used for what they are designed to do - bring you back to life instantly if you get killed. That is EXACTLY what it was designed for. The problem is, that application when used in large numbers, reduces risk greater than using large numbers of shadow packs. Its only a difference of degree, how advantageous one is over the other. Carrying a Stone of Rebirth in ya pocket so a lag spawn doesn't wipe ya, mebbe so ya can be unlucky once, twice, mebbe three times, sure got no problem with it, but carrying 20 to a guild event so ya can run round knowing that if you die you get rezzed automativcally befrore you even hit the groiund....20 times in a row.....imho is cheating. You are using the items in the game to give you an unfair advantage over players who choose not to go farming the server for a hundred stones of rebirth... ...No one called pushing thru doors an exploit or cheating until it was fixed, but that didn't make it not an exploit lol, and it got fixed in the end.... ... please do not try to tell me that those of you who are vets here need em, that would really be too funny. Rant over Cata Actually, the door push was ALWAYS called an exploit. At least by the DMs that I was around, all the way back to when they taught me how to do it when there was only one server. However, at the time, no one could do anything about it other than mock it. It was...tolerated, but always considered what it is - an exploit. And...as to cheating - I agree that its totally lame, but the only reason I can't call it cheating - is that there's no rule against it. To me, cheating means breaking the rules. I don't think rebirth stones should be in Pillars at all, because they warp the intended contest by making one person have no risk and their opponent receive no reward. Blatantly unfair, but not against any rule (yet). And, I may have missed something, but I don't recall anyone saying they were needed. Quite the opposite really. They are NOT needed. They are useful though. You hit on one use yourself. I know, for me, whenever there's a big spawn, or even a random - I get a computer slowdown/stop for a bit. If the monsters steamroll me, then I was flatfooted due to technology, and there's nothing I can do about that. I know it when I see it. ;D Seriously though, it comes down to semantics. Is it an exploit on the order of duping? Of course not. It'd be more accurate to describe it as exploitative use, taking something intended to serve as an aid and using it to effectively circumvent a major limitation/challenge, in this case limboing/death/respawn, to the point where we have to do something about it. As far as the definition of exploit, we've always left it to common sense, because there's a greatly decreased need for notice with our lax punishment policies. Are we calling you cheaters? No. But it was definitely cheesy, call it what you will. Funky What is this, the Court's definition of obscenity?? But. Yes. Clearly duping's an obvious exploit - and I submit its because of the very definition I follow - someone's using a problem with the game engine to magically duplicate something they have without going out and getting another. If you made a magic wand of item duplication, people using it wouldn't be exploiting But just as clearly, for reasons of server balance that will never, and should never, happen. Is rebirth stone stocking to the point of absurdity...cheese? Absolutely. Is it an exploit? No. Semantics? Potentially. But consider this. Exploiting, everyone agrees, is BAD. It is doing something WRONG, dishonest, prohibited...It feels like breaking the rules. That term has a lot more attached to it than "cheese". Which is why I think it should be used cautiously. I mean, look at the McFobs? Being labeled mass exploiters ruined their reputation. And there's a world of difference between breaking the game engine to fabricate items...and wasting your time stocking up on rebirth stones, which drop in the mod by design. So, I'd suggest that the word choice does matter. Indeed, the idea I was being accused of Being Bad in a cheating/wrong/sketchy way pretty obviously has me incensed. Using cheese (which is lame and worthy of mockery)? That bothers me, to the point that I've stopped farming them entirely, but thats a very different implication than "You're a Dirty, Dishonest Cheater". But...as to the stones themselves: Mortal Only, Aye As to immortal use stones? Well, creating them *at all* gives us the Pillars imbalance again, unless they're made not to work there at all - which would be good. They should be PvE anyway. Either way, even if they're made at all...I would suggest they hould be like current stones - big, bulky, nonstackable...but perhaps limited to a number well below what someone with Guardian Angel/Contingency/Eternal Return *could* do in a run using it each rest. Indeed, if they're that four-square rebirth stone size, I'd suggest 6 is a sensible max because thats all you can fit in one bag, and its half what even a 12 rest ring user can do under their own power in a run. Which would make those skills clearly superior.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 18, 2007 1:13:42 GMT
I can't agree with that. The introduction of post-immortal areas with no-immo zones redically shifted the capabailty of the rebirth stones from their original purpose. The same cannot be said of the shadow packs. Funky
|
|
|
Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Jul 18, 2007 1:28:00 GMT
If every spell thrown by a monster was necromancy based, shadow packs would be just as powerful. The item still does what it was created to do - like any tool, HOW its used matters.
The capability of the stones remains the same - instant return to life. Its just that the capability *means* more when the risks are higher.
If neg pots weren't sold in stores, shadow packs would be just as farmed - because you just can't survive without 100% negative immunity in places. And the usefulness of the shadow pack would drastically increase, while the capability would remain the same - it'd still do the same thing, only that would matter more.
But - semantics aside, which is where we may be, we pretty clearly agree that the tool has gotten out of hand, and needs to be dealt with so that the tool doesn't break the intended game balance/risk etc.
|
|