Cleric Builds

[aommaster1069]

As I have lost my UR Fallen Angel subrace book I have decided to create a cleric anyway on my other account. I have no subraces available to me on that account except the free ones and a minotaur that I have bought from the chest. I dont know what the best subrace would be to use for this so I have decided to come here and ask. Please tell me the best free subrace (or minotaur) that I should use for this. Also please point me out (or post) the best caster cleric build you guys have made.
Thanks,
aommaster1069

[dodrudon]

Nothing is so cut-and-dried as that. There is no "this is clearly the best," there are many ways to achieve whatever goal you have in mind, with different advantages and disadvantages. Don't wait for people to tell you what the "best" way to do something is, do some research, explore your options, and become a truly good builder.

[bort]

Dod's right.
Although I will say this. Having 1 level of Paladin and 1 level of Monk is popular cheese for a caster cleric, as it gives you evasion, Tumble AC and Discipline and CHA boost to saves. My new cleric who's using this template has good saves already at level 44 (55 fort, don't remember the rest). Don't forget to max (with gear/spells) your CON(fort saves), DEX(reflex saves), WIS(will saves) *and* CHA (for the Paladin bonus to saves - +12 CHA = +6 to all saves).
I made a Cleric with 1 Fighter and 1 Monk and the loss of Paladin charisma mod added to saves is painful.
Have a look at the build index for ideas; work out what's most important to you and do some testing in the test chamber to adjust the build to your taste.

Re. Subraces, I'd try and track down the new secret subrace;
"Kenku" (secret subrace) - no race requirement (changes Appearance)
STR -1, INT -1, WIS +4, free feat: Lightning Reflexes. free feat: Spell Focus - Abjuration

I'm convinced this subrace would make an awesome cleric - the free feats are perfect and the stats are good. Infact, i wouldn't be suprised if this couldn't match a Fallen Angel cleric or at least come very close.
Perhaps there aren't enough clerics about if Funky & Co. are giving cleric builders some love

P.s. Kenku looks awesome.

P.p.s. This was my 666th post *waits for something spooky to happen*

[Bakchuda]

EDIT: In the spirit of the previous posts, I didn't intend to do too much hand holding. Most of the effectiveness of a caster comes from field experience, so the build suggested below is a good start, but how you learn to play it and use it effectively will decide if it's a good build or not. /EDIT

Go with something like this, using Minotaur:

highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=builds&action=display&n=1&thread=1165705394

38 Cleric 1 Monk 1 Paladin is a great distribution. I would suggest putting the stat distribution something like this:
(numbers in parentheses are after subrace)

Str: 8 (12)
Dex: 8 (6)
Con: 14
Wis: 18 (20)
Int: 10
Cha: 14 (10)

You will be hurting a bit on your reflex saves, so I would swap Armor Skin and Epic Reflexes for Lightning Reflex and Legendary Reflex (your AC is not going to stop anything in Legendary areas anyway)

Follow the feat list on that build as best you can, and you should end up with a solid cleric.

[aommaster1069]

bort
If you have read my post then you would know why I cant use that.

I have decided to create a cleric anyway on my other account. I have no subraces available to me on that account except the free ones and a minotaur that I have bought from the chest.

[aommaster1069]

I think I came up with a pretty good build in the test chamber. Please have a look tell me how to improve it.
Starting Ablilites
STR - 8
DEX - 8
CON - 15
WIS - 18
INT - 14
CHA - 8

Level Progression: 18 Cleric, 1 Paladin, 20 Cleric, 1 Monk

Feats
01 Cleric - Combat Casting, Spell Penetration
03 Cleric - Greater Spell Penetration
06 Cleric - Toughness
09 Cleric - Improved Combat Casting
12 Cleric - Silent Spell
15 Cleric - Spell Focus Evocation
18 Cleric - Greater Spell Focus Evocation
21 Cleric - Epic Spell Penetration
24 Cleric - Epic Spell Focus Evocation, Armor Skin
27 Cleric - Maximise Spell, Epic Reflexes
30 Cleric - Great Wisdom 1, Great Wisdom 2
33 Cleric - Great Wisdom 3, Great Wisdom 4
36 Cleric - Great Wisdom 5, Great Wisdom 6
39 Cleric - Great Wisdom 7, Great Wisdom 8

Implosion DC at level 40 is 39
AC at level 40 naked is 32

[Ironfang]

What is your base race?
If human the 14 INT will give you 5 skills you can max out which would they be?

Concentrate, Heal, Tumble, Discipline and __________?

You may be able to back down your INT to 12 is what I am saying. Spellcraft is not that useful for a Cleric, the +1 to save vs. Spells per ever 5 points in Spellcraft is included in the +20 cap I have heard. Also, the worst saves in the game to fail are not from Spells anyways.

BTW: You keep mentioning you lost your FA subby, what happened? I see a post you made about losing a couple items in your chest that you were too worried about or was it something else?

[aommaster1069]

My subrace I chose was Human - Minotaur. [offtopic]The bank was all screwed up and when I went to put the items in it wouldn't save. Decided to move them over then when I got over there they werent in my bag or in the transfer chest. Apparently funky can't do anything about it so now im screwed. I said I was only really worried about my Fallen Angel subrace book.[/offtopic]

[kaldair]

Here's a couple of ideas

Your CON is 15. I suggest you take a feat before lvl 41 that is Great CON. You will have 7 feats between 41-60. As you already have 1-8 Great WIS in the build before lvl 41, you would have plenty of room to move a Great WIS to the 41-60 range. This will give you slightly better HP's and Fort save, at little (if any cost).

I would consider taking INT to 10 (or 8 if you're feeling really adventurous). Take those points and put them all in CHR for saves ...

Kaldair

[aommaster1069]

I have a question. How can I improve my DC for implosion? I dont know if 39 DC (following my build exactly) or 38 DC (replacing 1 great wis feat with con) is good enough for LL areas. What do you guys think?

[thedomicron]

dc for spells = bonus from feats (regular through legendary) + spell level + primary stat modifier (wisdom)

so taking all four evo foci feats and great wisdom 10 is how to max dc. effectiveness involves spell penetration though, so just keep that in mind.

[aommaster1069]

I am currently level 16 with this build and my implosion DC is 18. I am not sure if that is good but I sure hope it is.

[setekhi]

Actually there's a base 10 to add to your DCs. 10 + Level + Modifer + Feats.

[bort]

Here's what I would go with in your situation then (untested).

Feats
01 Cleric - Combat Casting, Spell Penetration
03 Cleric - Greater Spell Penetration
06 Cleric - Toughness
09 Cleric - Maximise Spell
12 Cleric - Silent Spell
15 Cleric - Spell Focus Evocation
18 Cleric - Greater Spell Focus Evocation
21 Cleric - Epic Spell Penetration
24 Cleric - Epic Spell Focus Evocation, Armor Skin
27 Cleric - Improved Combat Casting, Lightning Reflexes
30 Cleric - Great Wisdom 1, Great Wisdom 2
33 Cleric - Great Wisdom 3, Great Wisdom 4
36 Cleric - Great Wisdom 5, Great Wisdom 6
39 Cleric - Great Wisdom 7, Great Constitution 1 (taking your base constitution to 16; therefore increasing your consitution modifier by 1 and giving you 60 more hitpoints by level 60.)

42. Legendary Spell Penetration (essential for any caster build in my opinion)
45. Legendary Spell Focus (Evocation) (increases the DC on your implosions/earthquakes further)
48. Legendary Reflexes (you need Lightning Reflexes for this)
51. Epic Fort
54. Great Wisdom 8
57. Great Wisdom 9
60. Great Wisdom 10

This should give you a fairly robust cleric build; with maximum implode DC for a Minotaur and two epic spell focuses (if you use a book).

The requirement for Improved Combat Casting is 25 points in Concentration, and I think the earliest you can take it is roughly level 24(?)... So I juggled the feats around to take that into account. (What did you take at level 9?)

I swapped Epic Reflexes for Lightning Reflexes and Legendary Reflexes giving you +9 to your Reflex save with two feats instead of +4 with Epic Reflexes or +6 with that and Lightning Reflexes.
I added Epic Fort as a legendary feat as your Wisdom modifier will add to your Will save and you've already boosted your Reflex save, so I figured your Fort save could do with a boost (especially given the low Charisma of a Minotaur and the impact that has on the Paladin Charisma modifier boost to saves).

[bort]

In terms of starting stats, I'd go with:
STR 8
DEX 8
CON 15
WIS 18
INT 12
CHA 10

You don't need 14 points in Intelligence (as Kaldair said) although I think 12 is a good number - lets you comfortably Max Concentration, Heal, Discipline and Tumble.

Having CHA 10 is potentially +1 to all saves over having CHA 8, because Paladins have their CHA modifier added to saves.
Looking at the Stats on Minotaur, I'm really not sure the +1 DC you'll get to your spells from the +2 Wisdom is really worth the effective -2 to all saves and -1 to your Reflex save from the -4 Charisma and -2 Dexterity respectively.

Sadly, I can't find an open subrace that offers benefits for a caster cleric build without stiff penalties (Kobold looked promising until I realised you wouldn't be able to hold a tower shield because of the small size).
I think with the benefit of hindsight; if I had to make a caster cleric with no subraces unlocked; I'd go base Human, with no subrace.