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Post by johannhowitzer on Jul 24, 2007 1:16:08 GMT
I hope this is not off-topic, but this seemed the most appropriate place to post this, as it's about party etiquette, after all.
1. I know the server rules discourage leeching, and advocate the booting of anyone who is caught doing so. Does leeching extend to cover the practice of holding back on a boss you know will kill you in order to be on-hand for needed res or re-buffs? My Paladin was recently on a DB run and DB's breath kept wiping me out in one shot because I was short on immunities and reflexes, so I stayed back and resed, as well as praying and providing help defeating the lost souls (they kept respawning, a particularly squishy member couldn't escape DB's attention and kept kiting him all over). Was I leeching?
2. The general impression I get is that the party leadership token is little more than a porting-marker, and leadership of a party generally is not centralized into one or several members; in all the parties I've been in where someone got booted for leeching, general consent to the boot was given first by the rest of the party, or at least a fair number of its members. During this same DB fight, after a forceful command to "get up there and use your sword" from our party leader at the time (which I didn't know was directed at me, we had several tanks, some of whom wielded swords), I was promptly booted from the party and had to re-shout for an invite. Said leader - who will remain nameless, I'm not about childish slander on forums - claimed he/she had the right to boot me from the party, as I was just standing around. I claimed I was sparing others having to waste scrolls on me and offering my plentiful res scrolls to keep them alive... it's worth mentioning that I had resed the player who had the leader token several times prior, and also that during the actual kick I was standing still because I needed to refill my heal potion quickbar slot.
More to the actual point of this post: according to standard party etiquette on this server, did I do something that would qualify as leeching, and was he/she within authority to kick me from the party without any other members' consent?
I suppose I care too much about what people think of me; the rest of the party seemed to have no problem with what I was doing, it's just that I have never in all my time on the server been kicked from a party, save one time I was afk in an ice kobold party for longer than I intended to be, and I guess I just want to know that the kick was unwarranted. Until now, I had had nothing but the utmost respect for the member who kicked me, and that's probably why it bothers me so much... I don't think it would have fazed me if I'd been kicked by someone I didn't respect, like a few McFobs I can think of (not all McFobs, many I have met are quite agreeable). I have also done the exact same thing in past parties, and I have always been thanked after the battle for spending so many res scrolls, never kicked mid-battle.
A request to the person who kicked me: I'm sure you know who you are, and I am not soliciting your opinion here, as you have already made that abundantly clear in-game and I have dutifully reported your allegations in this post. I am soliciting the opinions of those uninvolved and therefore unbiased. Please do not respond to this thread, it will serve no purpose except to further irritate me and make you look bad. I have maintained your anonymity here for a reason - I don't wish to start a popularity contest or a flame war.
That said, what do people think of this situation? I'm not asking anyone to sugarcoat this, or to side with me; I want your honest opinion.
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Post by ocath on Jul 24, 2007 2:02:55 GMT
For what it's worth, my two cents are that, no you weren't leeching. If you were dragged through the entire run, ran into a corner and hid and then proceeded to go AFK, then I would say you were leeching.
In situation such as this, where you didn't have the immunities or staying power, then what would the point be of dying every couple of minutes. If you were able to do more good being a supporting member, rezzing and casting appropriate spells for the advantage of the party, then I see no problem with it.
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Post by dodrudon on Jul 24, 2007 2:03:41 GMT
1) I'd say that's fine. You have to know when to choose your battles, what your strengths and weaknesses are. Everybody in the party has a role, you just have to find it, whether it's designated rezzer or invincible tank.
2) In my opinion, the party leader is the one who puts the party together in the first place. The crown is, as you said, for porting. I can't think of anything that shouldn't be decided by party consensus. Once a leader has committed to a run (including the keys necessary), it's an agreement with the party that the leader will use those keys and not ditch at the end or something.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jul 24, 2007 2:39:03 GMT
You know, I can't remember who put the run together. The beginning was very muddled and about five people were already there when I arrived, so I don't know. I am pretty sure the crown had been passed around a couple times for porting purposes, so I can't really go by that. Booting me without asking the rest of the party seemed very much like an abuse of the crown. I have only done this to someone else once, and that was during a Dachy fight; the person in question was insisting on attacking Dachy and jeopardizing the run, despite partywide requests that he avoid dying and let the AA do the job. He began cursing, so I kicked him as a warning and reinvited him... I would have simply told him to cool his jets, but I was kiting Dachy at the time and couldn't use my keyboard to type! In retrospect, I maybe should have handled it differently, but at the time I couldn't see any other way to get him to stop. He ignored my invitation and logged. (I would also like to add that I did not get the DB tag I was after on this run, as I was killed by some lost souls I had dragged away from the party, and while there was time to res me, several people were already out of res and the rest may not have noticed, or were busy and figured someone else would take care of it. I didn't get any URs either. Neither of these things bothers me, as I was more in it for the XP, and I was one of the primary tanks and melee damage-dealers for the run leading up to Dachy, so I certainly did my part for what I earned.)
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Post by Yomi on Jul 24, 2007 8:47:31 GMT
My two cents (sigh, looks like it turned into 2 euros): Doesn't sound like you were leeching to me. To me leeching is not doing anything productive for the party, generally on purpose. Repeated dying, swishing, or even being pretty much ineffective the whole run isn't leeching even if it's dead weight -- leeching is porting in then constantly giving afk excuses except when the party moves maps.
There are times, generally the harder runs when you have a small team, when everyone needs to coordinate on strategy, and can't afford dead weight or people not performing their job. But on most runs it's up to the players to play their toons. Others can suggest, and most people will remember exceptional play whether good or bad. If it's harmful to the party or server, like casting every AoE fog spell in the book when the mobs are immune to them all, or repeated ball lightnings on annihilators, then the suggestions may be a bit harsh and booting could follow, but that's not leeching. Anyway, it sounds from your account that you had decided on what you thought the best tactics were, and implemented them. Even if someone in your party didn't agree with it, I'm not sure why you'd get booted for it.
Booting someone during the DB fight after they were part of the team the entire trip is, in my opinion, horrible. Even if someone was totally ineffective or even went afk during the fight, I'd do my best to keep them alive and in party. I may not be happy about it depending on the situation, but booting during the final fight would be wrong.
Some people, usually the much younger players, get very excited about having the crown and seem to think it means they're the Great Leader who should make sure people know they're in command. Regardless of the crown, on some runs the person or group who put together the run and/or supplied any consumables, has some more say in what goes on, but that's usually in terms of who gets invited and decisions like whether to go up the hill for the loot in DB.
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Post by fragment on Jul 24, 2007 9:38:00 GMT
It is pretty much expected that people who come to DB without a pretty decent reflex save and evasion hide their behinds in some place where they're not easily attacked or at least easily rezzed. I did a DB run on sunday where DB would alternate between the two squishies (STR tanks), killing them in turn. Boy was I annoyed when I ran from one to the other to rez them, and I wasn't even the one who got insta-killed. It was pure luck that the one guy who needed the tag got it. Anybody who *expects* such a person to go up to DB only to get breathed upon just because he wields a big sword is obviously a clueless n00b. Treat him as such, heap ridicule on him if you must. You respected the wrong person, get over it.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jul 24, 2007 15:35:21 GMT
Hm. I think you guys might be a little surprised if you knew who did it, and you might even reconsider that last comment, fragment, but of course I'm not telling unless he/she decides to post here. I wouldn't say a noob, maybe just having a bad day. That's the sense I got; the person in question was apparently yelling at other people in tells too, according to the tells they sent me immediately following my re-invitation.
It may have been rude and wrong, but at least I can't blame the person for losing my DB tag - the booting happened about halfway through the fight, and he/she seemed to cool off near the end, though we had words and I eventually got tell-blocked. During the end, when I was dead in a corner when DB died, the person in question was even one of the members out of res. Considering who it was that booted me, and the fact that it was more rude than harmful (though it was a major party distraction at that point in the fight), I'm willing to overlook this incident and wipe the slate clean.
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Post by ladyq on Jul 24, 2007 16:08:41 GMT
I'm with Yomi on that...the Lair is typically the quickest/easiest part of the entire run if theres a caster involved in the party. If I was in that party I'd at the least invite you for the split, considering you were a part of increasing the loot drop during the entire trip. I'd be really annoyed with whoever booted someone new to the trip right up at the boss, at least, without proper discussion amongst the entire party beforehand. A reason should be given to a person if they spent hours getting up to that point, imo, regardless of how little they contributed. I've seen worse from people going afk, but managing to somehow come back and plant their toon at the beginning of every map to soak up XP.
However, the person in question should make a response of their own, there's two sides to every coin
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Post by uncanny on Jul 24, 2007 18:32:02 GMT
I've also found myself in situations where I couldn't help at all due to spells depleted/inappropriate gear/ineffective toon/etc. If you are in a position then to make sure that everyone keeps moving (rezzing/buffing/etc); imho you are doing your part. In some area's I've been, experienced vets have been more than happy with just a few buffs and me being in GS to rez those in the front line. It's not as much fun, to be sure - but you're still doing your part.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jul 24, 2007 19:17:20 GMT
ladyq, the only things I ever got from the booter as far as what I was doing wrong was:
1) Not attacking DB with my sword, and 2) Standing still for a while (looking through inventory for heals, it's kind of a mess).
That's all. Unless he/she has some other accusation to level, I don't really see the point of welcoming a post - the other side of the coin has been faithfully presented already, or at least what I could gather from the tells and party chat.
I was in fact in the loot split of course, and rolled first but chose the DB bow (Stygias).
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Post by bhao on Jul 24, 2007 21:13:57 GMT
I think you guys might be a little surprised if you knew who did it maybe why? sounds about right. expecting you to melee db when you were clearly more of a liability than help in the front line surely seems noobish. for reference purposes, please let me relink this comic and of course notice the spelling fragment was using
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jul 25, 2007 9:04:27 GMT
Bah. I'd never read any of ctrl+alt+del before tonight... and you got me hooked. I just marathoned the entire strip, from the first panel to the most recent bit about bomberman being a terrorist!
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Post by cronodevir on Sept 5, 2007 21:48:10 GMT
I have played Higher Ground for quite awhile..and i must say..i have never ever, not even once, been in a party, where the rule for the loot was something other than "take what you want, as fast as you can" Which is what i personally think is the best way to do it. Unless its an item that respanws every 15 minutes. Then we take turns.
I didn't think people actually rolled for the loot. o.O I always thought that it was unfair, they didn't find it, its not thiers. Thats just me.
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Post by borges on Sept 5, 2007 22:07:37 GMT
I have played Higher Ground for quite awhile..and i must say..i have never ever, not even once, been in a party, where the rule for the loot was something other than "take what you want, as fast as you can" Which is what i personally think is the best way to do it. Unless its an item that respanws every 15 minutes. Then we take turns. I didn't think people actually rolled for the loot. o.O I always thought that it was unfair, they didn't find it, its not thiers. Thats just me. Can you post your player name and character name, so that I can put you on my "buddy" list? This sounds like a wonderful opportunity for adventures! Sincerely, Perin
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Post by gruntgruntson on Sept 5, 2007 22:19:31 GMT
I have played Higher Ground for quite awhile..and i must say..i have never ever, not even once, been in a party, where the rule for the loot was something other than "take what you want, as fast as you can" Which is what i personally think is the best way to do it. Unless its an item that respanws every 15 minutes. Then we take turns. I didn't think people actually rolled for the loot. o.O I always thought that it was unfair, they didn't find it, its not thiers. Thats just me. This is fine pre-Legendary, but once Immortal and doing LL runs, then the policy of "finders keepers" does not really gel with the stated intention of Party Play. People have set roles, especially in the higher runs, (soak-tanks, AoE damage-Dealers, Single-Target Damage-Dealers, crowd-control etc ...). If everyone is running round grabbing loot, the run will wipe, and you will get nothing, in fact lose things for fuguing. Someone may not have "found" an item, but they did help clear the path to it ... Sure, if the whole party is OK with your system, go with it. Just be aware that most LL runs use a One-Person-Banks, Spilt after Run system. The Boss-Loots do not respawn after 15 minutes ... they take 2 hours or more to get to, and respawn once per reset.
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