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Post by bazukar on Dec 4, 2011 22:10:43 GMT
Ok here it goes. What do you consider the minimums for builds? When does a build become poor and when is it good? I'm looking for some discussion. With the change to UUU and some of the tweaks over the last year I think things have changed a bit.
My opinion
After spending some time in the test chamber with varying classes an subs, open and BUR, I have come to a few conclusions.
Melee-AB
If you are a tier one AB class and have less than 99 AB (base, not including DW pens) you are doing it wrong. This assumes 60 in your primary stat and you taking all weapon focus feats, only 1 from craft weapon and any T2 AB class splash taken in epic levels. Pre demi. (buffed to +20)
If you are a T1 AB class you have 2 primary roles: Standing up, and dealing damage. Many classes have secondary roles with combat feats or AoE taunt, smites or breach, but pretty much everything stems from your AB and ability to hit things. I feel that having less than this minimum is gimping your build.
Tier 2 AB classes shouldn't be less than 94 AB pre demi. Some classes have wiggle room here due to having spells that grant fighter BAB, but other than that I still feel the same as the T1 AB classes. If you are melee you need to hit things. IMO having less than these ABs hinders your ability to do so, especially in heavy penalty areas. BTW with a bur sub you should be able to hit 98-99 ab on a T2 character with little difficulty.
Melee-AC
This one is a bit tricky. Str and Dex tanks are a bit different in what AC they shoot for but either way you pretty much want 130 or better in the lvl 60 areas. Dex generally goes for 140+ and not getting hit except on a 20, while str gets hit a bit more but mitigates far better. Different classes handle AC differently and some, like staffies for example, have terrible AC and do their tanking through concealment.
Melee- Stats
Dex based: IMO pure dexers are dead. Having only 6 or 8 in str means you are fodder for any str check in the module, and there are alot. Having only 20 str pre demi (if you had 6) means you need to roll an 8 or better vs non paragon gelugon dom, you need a 20 for basic kyton KD and will not make PF KD checks at all without a bard, and even with a bard you'll need to roll a 14 or better. That is not good math and will pretty much relegate you the carpet in many runs. If you can't stand up you can't tank, do damage or support. Why did you build a melee again? Bare minimum for a dexer needs to be 18 base str. 18 base will have you at 36 in +14 gear at DD which paired with a +4 to checks item will have you at 40. With a bard you'll be able to make most any checks you'll come across easily though elites and rolling a 1 are still a problem.
Str based: Pretty much the same as before, but you'll want 18 base dex. While KD dex checks are less prevalent than their str counterparts there are still many dex checks to beware of, most notably erinyes dom which is pretty much everywhere. 18 base and +14 gear pre demi will have you immune to non paragon erinyes and give you a good shot at avoiding P1 and P2 dom.
Skills: I find this pretty simple. You need to max your discipline, listen and parry, hit 60 in tumble, 30 in concentration then consider other skills. If you have a source of critical immunity you could consider skipping parry but I wouldn't reccomend it. UMD is handy but not mandatory. The rest is up to the class.
Casters: Casters are actually pretty varied and aren't quite as easy to level blanket statements on. For the most part you want to maximize your primary casting stat. Great (x) 10, the most you can put in at character creation. Some classes have one or two "must have" foci. I wont cover everything because if there is one, it's pretty self evident or explained somewhere, ie Clerics and Evocation.
I think that if you can get greater ruin you should try. You need 50 ranks in spellcraft to get 2 uses per day.
Skills: As far as skills that really depends on the caster and the build. Some want lore, others dont need it. All should have some spellcraft if for no other reason than the occasional counterspell duty. I don't remember what you need to counterspell, all of my casters have 50 ranks or cant CS.
There's other stuff and in betweens but I'm actually a tad short on time right now. Let's just kick off the discussion with this and see where it goes. As stated this is just my opinion and am interested in hearing other viewpoints.
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Post by uncanny on Dec 4, 2011 22:38:08 GMT
Not being funny but.. I see a plain dexer getting 130 with some tricks, but unless you're a class that gets special bonuses like a ranger I don't see it hitting 140 without some serious gear. Or do you include Girding of the Faithful in that amount? If so, then it's a dangerous assumption; it's hardly guaranteed that you'll have a cleric in every party you travel with (especially in this low player climate). As an aside re getting hit only on 20 - I took a tour in a few high epic areas today, well above AB range (120ac in a 60AB max mob area); and stood around without hitting back. Based on the damage, they'd have wiped the floor with me on 20's alone (didn't have any immunities up during the test). Not sure if there's been some adjustments to this recently, but they seemed to roll a 20 at least once per round per attacker, stacked up among the 20 or so in the mob and I was taking somewhere in the region of 100-150hp a round. Not enough to kill me, plenty of time to drink a pot here and there - and I could kill them fast enough - but just saying, being hit just on 20 is still not enough on it's own  |
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Post by bazukar on Dec 4, 2011 22:52:54 GMT
I dunno I didn't think it was that hard. My dex rogue hit 138~ pre demi with a shield. He only had G Dex 2 and the 4 bonus dex iirc. I don't see how it'd be much different for other classes assuming they were able to invest in some great dex. Non shield I could see how it might be tough, but if the class gets bonus ac or monk splash it's not hard at all. Well of course only getting hit on 20's isnt enough. I didn't mean to imply that's all there was to it, but I was discussing build and not gear. Every melee needs to maximize soak and immunities regardless of AC. Generally speaking though, if you have 140 ac or more and some concealment you should be sitting at a 95% dodge rate over the course of a run. Even with that you can still get instagibbed from a crit, infliction, or 2 mobs nailing you with 20's at the same time. Edit: If you were flatfooted you had alot less than 120 ac btw. |
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Post by simpetar on Dec 5, 2011 8:50:31 GMT
Now this thread is scary. I am not going to oppose you (much), because what you write is true and it makes sense, but it is just scary. Here is why:
1.
Your opinion. Mine as well, to an extent. And I suppose a lot of people think alike. But keep in mind that when it comes to roles, it is first and foremost the player's decision, more or less adapted to expectations of others. Example, my DwD will never lead in damage charts, I know it, I live with it. He has other virtues. Heck yeah, he is a T1 AB tank par excellence.
2. Stat spread is not something every build can afford in favor of str/dex checks. B-clerics need at least 19 wisdom and epic foci, smiter type divine tanks need heavy investment in charisma, DwDs need to pump constitution, etc. Smiters, rangers, barbarians, fighters, XDDs even rogues get some sort of "bonus" points to help them in this department. Which leads me to painful conclusion that other tankish classes will be wiped out of existence sooner or later, because what you say here is currently so much true.
3. But but but, what about dex assassins? They can hardly afford to be anything radically else than pure dexers. Truth be told, I have not seen one in hell runs for some time, guess why. *Cries* Simp is going to bury his assassin and one-of-the-kind WM... and hopefully resurrect them miraculously when times are better.
4. All your post applies to BUR subrace builds, I hope. Poor those who read it and cannot get one. Unless they are utter building geniuses, of course.
simpetar
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Post by fallenwizard on Dec 5, 2011 11:54:50 GMT
First of all, I agree on most what Bazukar says. AB on endgame enemies goes way over 120, especialy on paragorns, add no curse on team to drop the AB. Ofcourse this isnt AB for all of their attacks, but having 4 enemies each having 50% chance to hit first normal and first offhand and first bonus per round, 25% for second hits and 5% for rest of the attacks - You'll get hit a ton unless you have 140+ AC combined decent concealment. Ofcourse, if you plan to only tank 1-2 enemy at time and have very high conceal or immunity/soak, you can cope with next to no AC at all.
What comes to uncanny saying it requires crazy gear for AC - that is so not true. Being 2x demi means +3 ac in most cases, +5 for dexers and +7 for monks/rangers who get AC from wisdom too.
AC on dexter:
10 base
15 bur armor
25-30 dex (60-70)
1+16 shield (bur)
17natural (bur)
20dodge
17 deflectin (bur)
12 tumble
2 armor skin
1-3 CA
=136 with 60 dex and 1 CA, 142 with 70 dex and 2 from CA, +3 from asmo arty = 145 with "crazy gear"
60 dex is low'ish for bur race, high'ish for open subby.
Monk splashes lose 5-10 ac vs shield depending on race/build and demi count. Monk splash dexter can still hit 140ac pre gird (64dex/38wis example on my AA) - after demi that is thou. Pre demi monk splashers getting over 135 is rare and that is for Bur races, opens 130+ pre demi monk splash is quite nice (note pure monks get +8ac vs 1-4 level splash, so pure monk can still get 140 ac pre demi)
Str tank AC should be 125-130 pre demi and 130-140 after demi - Str tank AC varies a lot more than Dexers because armor/shield selection - many str tanks with 40'ish dex choce to go lighter armors for higher AC at cost of phys imms that full plates offer. On areas with more inflictions - such as Abyss, the high AC with lower imms generaly outtanks lower AC with higher imms. On low inflict areas like most of nessus, high imm out tanks high ac - bar ichors.
An example of Str barbarian with 30+ dex:
10base
18+5 bur armor
10 dex (limit on armor)
2+16 bur shield
20 dodge
17 natural
17 deflection
12 tumble
2 armor skin
1-3 carft armor
=129-131 depending on craft armor + 3 when demi + 3 if use strong heart for 135-137 + gird for 140'ish in medium armor at 2xD with "crazy gear"
Monk AC - using my own build as an example - 62dex/45str/34wis at 2xD, 58/41/30 at immo
10 base
15 armor
24 dex
10 wis
20 dodge
17 natural
17 deflection
12 tumble
3 craft armor
2 armor skin
6 monk bonus (31 levels)
= 136 pre demi. +3 deflection from arty +2 per demi iteration on dex/wis = 143 2xD.
Now I dont know other monks who went as high str/dex combination than I did, which generaly means higher dex/wis combo that means more AC.
Now ofcourse - If you dont get tumle and armor skin you lose 8-14 AC. Also if you want to dex dualweild without monk splash (or high ranger) you naturaly cant expect to have high AC, not saying it it impossible, say 76 dex assasin/shadow dancer can get 130 dualweild AC without monk, but hardly worth it IMO. Non monk/ranger dexers should have shield profiency to up AC at endgame.
Str tanks can cope with just immunity/soak/crit imm, like my favorite hell tank - CoT does, but that requires "crazy gear".
As conclusion, being bur race helps a ton on AC, especialy for monk splashes. By this I mean that even open races should keep the offstat in mind and not just max ac on dex/wis. Gear matters, but not hugely, mainly for demi and/or str tanks if they choce to use strong heart for +3ac. Gear has far bigger impact on immunity/soak which allows to slack on AC/conceal department.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 12:32:58 GMT
I think much of this scaled to player progression and what Baz is talking about appears to be at the high end of that. Which basically means you must have progressed significantly as a player to survive and make a contribution to current end-game runs (Hells and beyond). The bar seems high and is going to be much much higher when EE and paragon levels come out. I can only guess at what that means in terms of player progression.
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Post by uncanny on Dec 5, 2011 12:44:40 GMT
Being 2x demi means +3 ac in most cases, +5 for dexers and +7 for monks/rangers who get AC from wisdom too. Well, here's your monk build's AC: You do realize that to get those numbers you used BUR kit, and your monk uses some additional high end kit even harder to get than that? As in, crazy gear that you only get on endgame runs? So you've essentially agreed with me here. But more than this, are we now saying everyone must be demi, and must be covered in burs to manage the areas to get the kit to survive the same areas???!? Sounds like a long slippery road to me. Unless you play endgame areas constantly, it's not exactly reasonable to expect someone to have all BUR kit specific to the build they're playing, or even demi; and state that as a minimum. does not seem conducive to new player induction at all. Expecting all UR and upper tier area kit, which you CAN get outside of those endgame areas with some effort and gold, is more reasonable - but I imagine will put you effectively short of those figures unless you're a specific class like a ranger that gets bonus points from other areas. |
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Post by fallenwizard on Dec 5, 2011 16:12:29 GMT
Ok so if you wont use market chests, not use !bazaar to trade/buy bur robe with 15 armor (3 different options) or dont have one of the UR robes with 15 randomed AC - something that is often foun on LL's. Amulet is only other item that requires bur ac - Vets mass sell and burn on eletrifiers *pure guess* 10 a day with 17 ac. Wont cost a fortune to buy a amulet with 17 ac from market chests or !bazaar. Number of burs drop is really really high - when you dont look for top notch quality of it. I made an alias account and by lvl 50 LL solo farming I had most of my lvl 60 BUR kit bought from market, including some nice imm rings.
Deflection is really common to have randomized to +17 on URs and not to mention there is 3 different slots that offers this AC. Again, if you really cant get one of the 50 burs that has +17 deflection or find UR that is randomized to +17 - then I really dont want to even imagine what kind of gear you do use on the tanks.
Shield AC on dexer that isnt monk can be hard as there is only 1 bur AC shield if you dont have UR/rare randomized to BUR AC. Personaly I use set small shield from aboleths, but that is just to improve kit from general UR/BUR kit - by no means needed. Shield from PoM with -1 on AC has 10% phys imms and parry bonus which is great for dexers, in some occasions better than Aboleth one.
Now there is a huge difference with the Robes of Dim Mak Master that my AA uses and ones that you can get from market or via !bazaar, but AC is the same, immunity/resist/augmenter/added stuff makes difference - but when we're talking about AC, there really really is no difference between "haves" and "have nots".
Maybe, just maybe - you're talking about minority of players who never play lvl 60 content, never use market or !bazaar and use all their money on res scrolls and neg pots.
Bur kit for lvl 60 is mandatory - quality of Burs improve with the amount you play, but obtaining base or slightly lowered version (not +14's, imms 1-2 down isntead of up etc). Not saying you necessarely use 100% burs, but getting bur ac on armor, amulet and 1 of the 3 deflection slots and getting the +14 on main stats + shield if use such. I used to wear certain uro bracers with 15% phys imms for quite long untill for bur ones with same/better imms and other properties. UR breach boots with decent randomization can be better than Bur ones, point is that you make it balanced. But honestly, if you claim that lvl 60 tank cant get bur grade ac on at least armor, deflection and natural, then I must ask are you even playing on HG?
It is possible that someone who has his first char and powerlevelled trough 10 desert and 10 DB where no one picks the loots you might be so poor that you cant afford to even buy decent items, but if you do each LL once and some of them couple times in 4-6man groups you're almost quaranteed to have items to trade or money to buy burs.
The sets that people post on builds are the ideal ones that covers optimal +14's and skills and immunities etc, but there are tons and tons alternatives for them.
Also, I expect lvl 40 to be wearing UR's unless it is first char on the server, when i'll help out with kits and places where to look for improvements, by lvl 45 everyone should have max UR AC kit even bur grade AC via randomization, but that takes some luck. Ofcourse AC still goes up on levels ups when your tumble, craft armor and dex(and possibly wisdom) increases. Lvl 50 dexer can easily sit at 130+ AC with bur race and good ur gear.
Endgame runs will ofcourse require endgame items. If it wouldnt, once you have endgame items you'd run them trough like you run desert - mass everything, cast 10 spells and everything is dead while you take 0 damage your self. Now there are some excelent builds that you can cope with very minimum and far from optimal gear but that wont fit for general build minimums.
Also do read the OP, all the AB's and dex/str checks Baz mentions are for endgame. They arent build minimums for LL's. for LL running AB of enemies are far lower and damage they deal are lesser so lesser ac/immunties is needed. You know, lvl 60 build for lvl 60 area, lvl 50 for lvl 50 area etc. If you play randomly endgame and most LL's then yo only randomly need to have the proper items IF you intend to do the tanking. Now this is where party formation comes along. The squishier the tanks are, the more you take. You can recruit 6 tanks to do 2 tank job etc. Also given the playstyles and funfactors, many makes builds to rely on other tanks on runs. Basicly because then they can focus on different things on builds and do crazy stuff. Just dont call them selves tanks if they cant tank.
We all play the game to have fun - I enjoy pushing builds to limits on numbers and in game acchievements, many just play to chill out with longtime mates that together can accomplish runs and get some shinies looted along the way. HG is great for that as it allows runs to be done with fairly small number of players with added chalenge and yet still not be too easy for 10 people, by occasionaly cause runs to fail and remind people that they should be better prepared or communicate with each other.
Wrote this post pretty much in order what came to my mind, might jump back and forth quite a bit.
Edit: Take your lvl 35 and go tank desert or some other low 40 run, possible - yes, risky - definetly, would I do be able to really tank full spawn alone while attacking them aka not just spam heal potions - propably not. Unless I'd be using special build that self buffs AC and imms etc to equal lvl 40 gear.
Why would you be able to tank lvl 60 spawns with lvl 40 kit? Difference between 60 and 40 in gear power is propbly same than lvl 35 and 40 has. So I dont really see why I wouldnt expect someone who joins lvl 60 run to have lvl 60 gear, or at least most of it - unless he also notes "first time doing this, only tapped up to Dis, done that once".
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Post by bazukar on Dec 5, 2011 17:22:24 GMT
I agree that some classes have it rough when it comes to stat spread. Bclerics are one of them. They can still make the dex/str minimum needed and get the other things they need, it just requies, sadly, a BUR sub and ridiculous stat an feat management. I wouldnt even want to try building one on an open sub now. Also, iirc they are one of the classes with an ability that gives fighter BAB so they can afford to have a bit less in their primary stat. DwD will never top damage meters and that's fine, it's a tradeoff for superior tanking. I played around with a build and I had no serious problems spreading stats to the needed minimums. Open sub was rough though. I doubt the other classes will be releagted to the junk heap forever, it may take some time but they'll be tweaked. Actually a dex assassin can still make the minimum str req but again, it might require a UR or better sub. Don't forget, all you need is to manage 18 base in your offstat for the minimum after edits. Or great x feats. Your disarming midget build is boned tho, sorry  No, not at all. I just made an open subrace monk that hits all of the minimums. If I can do it, anyone can. No not at all. See above. That open sub monk was built specifically to be the guy that tanked ichors and asmo 3rd form pre demi. With smart gearing (not uber) and some buffs he should have little problems doing so. I'm not sure I'd take it to abos pre demi, but it could handle ely or shallow abyss once in bur gear. I can't speak for paragon levels but if you are doing EE you should be at least double demi. These are, after all, the oldest, nastiest, most vile and powerful creatures in D&D lore. And fallen pretty much hit the nail on the head with all his stuff. I'll agree that AC isnt hard even with just UR gear. You don't need a BUR sub to hit good ac, you just need to build for it. Starting stats, which open sub and what great stat feats you take all play a role. I was able to do it with an open sub monk, maybe I should do it with some other classes too. I like a good challenge |
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Post by arek on Dec 5, 2011 17:39:17 GMT
About Dexers and Endgame: I have been running The Shadow Smurf in Tia->Min lately, and it has few problems, even in min (Kyton City), with just 6 base str (20 total). Why? Well, partially it's because of having bards that do their job, but also partially because the sheer number of stat checks has been reduced significantly since the UUU nerf. He's even done some PF tanking in his day. He tries to avoid 'em, but sometimes it's just not possible.
Don't count dexers out just yet. :-)
--Arek
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Post by bazukar on Dec 5, 2011 17:48:37 GMT
There's nothing wrong with dexers. I just think it's a bad idea, longterm, to ignore str. I'm not attacking you at all, but what happens when you don't have a bard? What happens when you have to tank gelidarchs or you get multi PF spawns? You can certianly tank them, but the math is icky imo |
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Post by arek on Dec 5, 2011 18:11:18 GMT
Agreed, but getting 18 base dex on an open subrace shadowdancer is also a bit icky. My plan is, eventually, to show how to transition to a better race and gain both AB and some KD stability.
--Arek
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 5, 2011 18:46:57 GMT
My issue with most the things said at least in the original post is that I don't consider many of these numbers to be the minimum. I think while these numbers are good goals people should aim for they do not qualify as minimums to me. I also think that it is slightly subjective based on where and what you intend the toon to do. A toon who is a tank does not need to dish out damage so long as it can survive being the target of the monsters attention and retain and draw that attention. Toons that are not intended to go to Hell and/or Abyss will have different minimums so it is hard to really set minimums with out setting goals. I would say for a general effective toon the goals should be completing Hell and using an open subrace. This puts minimum AB at 94 while AC is tricky as it depends on how much you you can rely on soak, resistance, reduction, immunities, and/or concealment some of those defensive do not stack but you get the picture. For a caster it depends on the class as to how much each CL away from max costs and what each level of splash adds for figuring minimum CL but generally nothing below 58. The SP there really is no minimum beyond CL 58+ and Legendary Spell Penetration the only exception is Quasis which get other sources of SP comperable or superior to that. The DC for a caster should be as maxed as possible but I would say the minimum base here is 48 base score in caster stat as I think that is reasonable number to expect even an open sub caster of any type to hit.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 5, 2011 18:53:40 GMT
You're probably right. I haven't tried building an open sub SD yet, I'll give it a whirl an get back to you. I try and build for more str myself because I don't want a new player to hit 60 and have his hells experience be flat on his back half the time. When I build i'm thinking of malad, cania and nessus. The deep areas where the nastiest checks are with the beefy penalties. I try to build so that someone could get double demi before reincarnation. With a harsh 3 month cooldown on reincarnating, when and how you do it with what sub is a pretty big freakin deal |
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Post by bazukar on Dec 5, 2011 19:14:25 GMT
My issue with most the things said at least in the original post is that I don't consider many of these numbers to be the minimum. I think while these numbers are good goals people should aim for they do not qualify as minimums to me. I also think that it is slightly subjective based on where and what you intend the toon to do. A toon who is a tank does not need to dish out damage so long as it can survive being the target of the monsters attention and retain and draw that attention. Toons that are not intended to go to Hell and/or Abyss will have different minimums so it is hard to really set minimums with out setting goals. I would say for a general effective toon the goals should be completing Hell and using an open subrace. This puts minimum AB at 94 while AC is tricky as it depends on how much you you can rely on soak, resistance, reduction, immunities, and/or concealment some of those defensive do not stack but you get the picture. For a caster it depends on the class as to how much each CL away from max costs and what each level of splash adds for figuring minimum CL but generally nothing below 58. The SP there really is no minimum beyond CL 58+ and Legendary Spell Penetration the only exception is Quasis which get other sources of SP comperable or superior to that. The DC for a caster should be as maxed as possible but I would say the minimum base here is 48 base score in caster stat as I think that is reasonable number to expect even an open sub caster of any type to hit. That's actually pretty fair as far as it goes. If you want an LL farmer the numbers would be different. My numbers are assuming someone wants to go into hell or beyond. I personally don't agree with the pure tank that survives and doesnt do damage concept. Even building for max tanking stats theres no reason to fall below 94-5 ab. I don't think a tank class can contribute enough through tanking alone to justify doing no damage. The only tanks I think are outside this rule are warchanters and bards, and only because of the group utility and spells they have. You can build for survivability and at least average damage on an open sub. |
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