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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 5, 2011 19:42:21 GMT
I will give monks a few points allowed to shave off the minimum AB but I will agree that a tank even if just a tank should still be able to actually hit things so an AB of 94 and up is the minimum. I forgot to add that I do not hold monks, or anyone getting monk attack progression to the same standard for AB simply because I base the minimum attack of 94 on what the lowest AB in the attack progression is. I forget the numbers and how frequently a top AB of 94 can hit on its lowest AB in the attack progression.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Dec 6, 2011 20:31:17 GMT
No, not at all. I just made an open subrace monk that hits all of the minimums. If I can do it, anyone can. I'd be interested to hear what you gave up to get that? Cata
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Post by bazukar on Dec 6, 2011 20:49:18 GMT
Stunning fist, which I don't like anyway
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Post by tomaan on Dec 7, 2011 14:40:05 GMT
I look at AB in two ways: a) what is your highest attack and how many are you getting? -- a dual wielder at AB95 gets at least 5 attacks at 90+ (2 primary, 2 off, 1 haste) -- by comparison, a single wiwlder at AB100 only gets 4 (at 100/95/90 + haste) -- so the dual wielder "wins" as s/he is getting more attacks at/above AB90
b) what is your lowest attack? -- best I can tell is that you really don't want to go below AB80 on your lowest attack (feedback?) -- thus, a pure monk with AB94 can use flurry and still get all their attacks in at/above AB80
This general rule has worked out fairly well so far, but, I'll admit I haven't gone very deep in the Abyss so don't know if I'd be swinging at air or not.
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 7, 2011 15:59:07 GMT
Number of attacks depends on your BAB except monks and monk weapons BAB of 16-20 will have 4 base attacks BAB of 11-15 will have 3 base attacks BAB of 10 will have 2 base attacks I do not think it is possible to go below a BAB of 10
Monk UBAB UBAB of 16-20 will have 6 attacks UBAB of 13-15 will have 5 attacks UBAB of 10-12 will have 4 attacks
Generally a melee toon won't end up with less than 14 or 15 BAB which is already hurting it as it means they are -1 AB and -1 Attack both of which can be a big advantage.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 7, 2011 20:09:20 GMT
I look at AB in two ways: a) what is your highest attack and how many are you getting? -- a dual wielder at AB95 gets at least 5 attacks at 90+ (2 primary, 2 off, 1 haste) -- by comparison, a single wiwlder at AB100 only gets 4 (at 100/95/90 + haste) -- so the dual wielder "wins" as s/he is getting more attacks at/above AB90 b) what is your lowest attack? -- best I can tell is that you really don't want to go below AB80 on your lowest attack (feedback?) -- thus, a pure monk with AB94 can use flurry and still get all their attacks in at/above AB80 This general rule has worked out fairly well so far, but, I'll admit I haven't gone very deep in the Abyss so don't know if I'd be swinging at air or not. That's a good way of looking at it to a point. But you aren't accounting for penalties. Even assuming immo/x3 pens your 95 ab dual wielder (base? after DW pens?) is down to 90 at malb, 88 in nessus, 86 if 95 was base AB and not DW, or 84 if you're dualing katanas or somesuch. At x1 or x2 the numbers are worse, hitting -10 and -8 respectively. While dual wielders certianly do win in the example you post, don't forget there is a steep cost: No shield ac (unless DwD) or stats/imms, no torch, and 3 feats or the PoM bracers required. Running through hells with 97 base ab on a monk I noticed more whiffs and a loss of about 6-10% to my hitrate when I flurried depending on demi count and paragon spawns. Abyss I don't flurry at all, the AC on mobs is quite a bit higher than hells. 80 ab is whiff city. Also, unless GR'd, in most of thanatos and zion you are almost permacursed from bard mobs being everywhere.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Dec 7, 2011 20:22:23 GMT
Stunning fist, which I don't like anyway U don't like stunning fist? I assume you gave up QP also then since the dc calc is the same I think? I gotta say that's a big goat for a bit if ab but then I'm a huge Stunning Fist fan hehe. Guess that is just down to personal preferance Cata Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using ProBoards
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Post by bazukar on Dec 7, 2011 20:46:46 GMT
Stunning fist, which I don't like anyway U don't like stunning fist? I assume you gave up QP also then since the dc calc is the same I think? I gotta say that's a big goat for a bit if ab but then I'm a huge Stunning Fist fan hehe. Guess that is just down to personal preferance Cata Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using ProBoards Hrmm. I guess I should put it differently. Stunning fist and QP are fun. It is fun to stun things and using QP on tough elite mobs and dropiing em flat is a lot of fun But IMO you give up way too much in the long run in order to have SF and QP. QP is only 1 per rest (don't get me wrong, much more uses and it'd be way OP) and as far as I know 95% of what you can stun can be instakilled. With Stunning fist feats, the needed wisdom and pandect you seem to lose any ability to be even remotely uni, and I have yet to see a stunning monk do even average damage. Yes they help the party and there is a bit of utility, but it doesn't outweigh the extreme lack of damage they appear to have. In the abyss it's even worse as they tend to have a lower AB, and apparently they can't even stun molydeus I can't say there isnt a role for a stunner in groups. I could definitely see them as a free safety type that intercepts and disables mobs headed for or beating on the casters, but generally speaking any melee can handle that, easily if the caster has GV or GS.
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Post by arek on Dec 7, 2011 22:31:14 GMT
So what if that SF monk doesn't do even average damage? If that monk is, instead, helping the run go more smoothly by disabling dangerous mobs (raks, for one), is that not also contributing, and perhaps doing so even better than by dishing out more damage? Believe me, if those raks aren't controlled or killed quickly, you'll know it. And that's just one dangerous mob. There are others that are equally dangerous.
--Arek
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Post by bazukar on Dec 7, 2011 22:58:24 GMT
So what if that SF monk doesn't do even average damage? If that monk is, instead, helping the run go more smoothly by disabling dangerous mobs (raks, for one), is that not also contributing, and perhaps doing so even better than by dishing out more damage? Believe me, if those raks aren't controlled or killed quickly, you'll know it. And that's just one dangerous mob. There are others that are equally dangerous. --Arek That's a valid point, but I don't think it outweighs the cons of being an SF monk. Generally poor tanking stats in regards to checks, generally a lower ab, lower damage, limited utility. Also keep in mind that monk has to beat EV conceal to land that hit, or run around with a moad weapon to try an breach it so they can try to land the hit. And raks still have innate conceal even without EV. Most monsters where an SF monk could be useful there are many classes that could do it better, faster and easier/at range. Also the monk needs to be close up. Running to the raks in malb for example is a very bad idea. The monk would only shine when none of those classes were present. As I said before, there aren't many mobs a monk can stun that can't be instad. (Can monks stun buers? If they can that's def a +) Also, generally anything a monk can stun is the last thing the other melee should be attacking in a spawn. I'm not saying SF monks are useless, and I outlined what I think their niche is; the free safety protecting the casters. They also have some random spawn utility. But in any place where you need a DPS burn (asmo or any abyss boss) an SF monk isn't very useful. It's a melee crowd control class I guess. Just to be clear, I wouldn't turn a fist monk away from a group, but they would hardly be my choice for most parts of the mod.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Dec 8, 2011 0:46:37 GMT
But IMO you give up way too much in the long run in order to have SF and QP. QP is only 1 per rest (don't get me wrong, much more uses and it'd be way OP) and as far as I know 95% of what you can stun can be instakilled. With Stunning fist feats, the needed wisdom and pandect you seem to lose any ability to be even remotely uni, and I have yet to see a stunning monk do even average damage. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, my Dex Stunning Fist Monk is 5 x Demi and for a Dexer does seriously nifty damage, ok I use a Dev Crit Unarmed Torch, it's a BUR Subrace, is kitted out in top of the line gear and no it isn't Uni but I've never had much trouble with my tanks, I have a ton and only about 2 of them even approach uni status and then only accidentally. It's my favourite tank to play. Max SF DC and top ab is about 99 iirc. It hasn't gone far in Abyss yes but where it has gone it's only real issue is Abyssal Ants, they send him running screaming for the hills Otherwise everywhere else I've taken him he's shone. Including Abo's and Ely. But this is prolly veering off topic so I'll shut up now Cata
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Post by Lee on Dec 8, 2011 1:27:02 GMT
But IMO you give up way too much in the long run in order to have SF and QP. QP is only 1 per rest (don't get me wrong, much more uses and it'd be way OP) and as far as I know 95% of what you can stun can be instakilled. With Stunning fist feats, the needed wisdom and pandect you seem to lose any ability to be even remotely uni, and I have yet to see a stunning monk do even average damage. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, my Dex Stunning Fist Monk is 5 x Demi and for a Dexer does seriously nifty damage, ok I use a Dev Crit Unarmed Torch, it's a BUR Subrace, is kitted out in top of the line gear and no it isn't Uni but I've never had much trouble with my tanks, I have a ton and only about 2 of them even approach uni status and then only accidentally. It's my favourite tank to play. Max SF DC and top ab is about 99 iirc. It hasn't gone far in Abyss yes but where it has gone it's only real issue is Abyssal Ants, they send him running screaming for the hills Otherwise everywhere else I've taken him he's shone. Including Abo's and Ely. But this is prolly veering off topic so I'll shut up now Cata Have you ever played you pure dex monk after the uuu nerf?
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 8, 2011 1:44:39 GMT
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, my Dex Stunning Fist Monk is 5 x Demi and for a Dexer does seriously nifty damage, ok I use a Dev Crit Unarmed Torch, it's a BUR Subrace, is kitted out in top of the line gear and no it isn't Uni but I've never had much trouble with my tanks, I have a ton and only about 2 of them even approach uni status and then only accidentally. It's my favourite tank to play. Max SF DC and top ab is about 99 iirc. It hasn't gone far in Abyss yes but where it has gone it's only real issue is Abyssal Ants, they send him running screaming for the hills Otherwise everywhere else I've taken him he's shone. Including Abo's and Ely. But this is prolly veering off topic so I'll shut up now Cata Have you ever played you pure dex monk after the uuu nerf? I haven't played a Pure DEX monk ever but I have played other Pure DEX or Pure STR toons and not really seen much difference in how often I find myself KD and I find I am dead from KD far less. So what is your point of the "nerf" that the other changes have actually made it easier in the end?
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Post by Lee on Dec 8, 2011 3:08:11 GMT
Have you ever played you pure dex monk after the uuu nerf? I haven't played a Pure DEX monk ever but I have played other Pure DEX or Pure STR toons and not really seen much difference in how often I find myself KD and I find I am dead from KD far less. So what is your point of the "nerf" that the other changes have actually made it easier in the end? Have you ever played you pure dex monk after the uuu nerf? I haven't played a Pure DEX monk ever but I have played other Pure DEX or Pure STR toons and not really seen much difference in how often I find myself KD and I find I am dead from KD far less. So what is your point of the "nerf" that the other changes have actually made it easier in the end? I was talking about this: - UUU and Knockdown Edits -- UUU has been modified to remove its grant of knockdown immunity for everyone but the caster. The caster still gets kd immunity, but everyone else gets only a +10 to their ability check to avoid kd. Supposing your pure dexxer has 26 str at double demi (8 str on creation), you are even vulnerable to KD effect from kytons£¬ let alone pit fiends.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 8, 2011 3:20:38 GMT
But IMO you give up way too much in the long run in order to have SF and QP. QP is only 1 per rest (don't get me wrong, much more uses and it'd be way OP) and as far as I know 95% of what you can stun can be instakilled. With Stunning fist feats, the needed wisdom and pandect you seem to lose any ability to be even remotely uni, and I have yet to see a stunning monk do even average damage. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, my Dex Stunning Fist Monk is 5 x Demi and for a Dexer does seriously nifty damage, ok I use a Dev Crit Unarmed Torch, it's a BUR Subrace, is kitted out in top of the line gear and no it isn't Uni but I've never had much trouble with my tanks, I have a ton and only about 2 of them even approach uni status and then only accidentally. It's my favourite tank to play. Max SF DC and top ab is about 99 iirc. It hasn't gone far in Abyss yes but where it has gone it's only real issue is Abyssal Ants, they send him running screaming for the hills Otherwise everywhere else I've taken him he's shone. Including Abo's and Ely. But this is prolly veering off topic so I'll shut up now Cata What's seriously nifty damage? I'd have to see your monk in action, because I have never seen an SF monk do good damage regardless of gear or demi. And is this from your Stunning Fist Master build? Looking at the stats you posted there it's not possible to hit 99 ab, and would come out to 95. I'm not trying to attack you, and I'm sure it tanks well and stuns well. Sorry to question your claims on damage, just in my time here I haven't seen much in that department from SF monks and I find myself dubious regarding claims to the contrary. And yes, we are traveling a bit afield
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