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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 27, 2014 15:26:33 GMT
That's one possibility. Mainly though, the problem is one of timescale. When you stop to consider the frame in which XR races is relevant, it is NOT the last few months of play, or even the last year. It's the full remaining life of the server, which should be FAR better balanced than the present state of flux.
That said, I'm all for suggestions to fix broken subs now, before it takes a pc versioning to do it, which is more involved. Those suggestions have to be a little less narrow in their perspective, though.
Funky
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Post by arek on Jan 27, 2015 15:18:54 GMT
Speaking of subraces in need of a rework, has anyone tested exactly how the Dream Dwarf Weapon Focus grants work with Warchanter Weapon Specialization? IE whether the game grants all 3 WS feats or just one arbitrary one? If it grants an arbitrary one, the race needs a bit of a rework - my suggestion is this: Once a focus feat is taken with any WC weapon, Dream Dwarf grants Greater Weapon Focus in the same weapon. If that doesn't seem like enough, perhaps add another pre-epic feat there. I don't suggest EWF due to that stepping on the toes of DD-CC chanters a bit (epic bonus feats). -- arek
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 27, 2015 15:26:27 GMT
Granting all 3 seems the easy solution and shouldn't add any real power as only one weapon is generally selected by any toon and if you lack the AB to hit the bonus damage is worthless. The only other "easy" fix would be having it grant the appropriate feat at say L41 this means you lack the bonus until then but it would allow for easier scripting of it. The last option I can come up with is something in the PC Scry device that only works while L1 and lets you select which feat you get.
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Post by arek on Jan 27, 2015 15:37:58 GMT
The scripting for granting GWF with WF is already basically there, Yojimbo (see Rhek), it would just need to be modified a bit to work with Dream Dwarf. Granting WS in all 3 weapons at the WC level is probably the simplest solution, tho. -- arek
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Post by warchief on Jan 29, 2015 13:53:52 GMT
List of Current Problematic XR Subraces:"Tanarukk" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Barbarian - STR +6, CON +4, INT +4 - Free Feats: ESF: Intimidate/Taunt, Terrifying Rage, Thundering Rage, Mighty Rage, Alertness- Other: Thundering Rage grants +3 fire dice if their weapon has fire (doesn't stack with flame weapon/darkfire)
List of Suggestions for Subrace Modifications:"Tanarukk" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Barbarian - STR +6, CON +4, INT +4 - Free Feats: ESF: Intimidate/Taunt, Terrifying Rage, Thundering Rage, Mighty Rage, Alertness- Other: Thundering Rage grants +6 fire dice if their weapon has fire (doesn't stack with flame weapon/darkfire)
Looking through the races, I definitely like Tanarukk but Semnar does have a good point here that the +3 fire is only good until you get a cleric or arcane with the +4 which is in most if not all LL and Hell runs. +6 seems like a nice boost but just think of how OP that would be in prell. You can easily buy a Harbringer Kin +1 (shop Greatsword with 2 fire damage on it) then all you do is rage and everything will die in seconds with Thundering Rage adding 1d10 sonic (at low level) then 6d10 fire + Mighty Rage damage + two handed weapon bonus. Nothing save the mobs immune to fire would survive very long at any point. Now a solution to this would be to have the fire damage scale like the sonic for Thundering rage based on level or increase the +3 to +6 at LL. Other than that I like this subrace and look forward to being able to play it when it comes out.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 29, 2015 14:53:31 GMT
scaling with level would be best but I would still limit it to maybe +1 per 12 barb levels allowing a max of +5 for a pure L60 barb
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Post by warchief on Jan 29, 2015 15:08:59 GMT
Why would it be per 12 when Sonic on Thundering is per 10? Also didn't mention how it would scale just that it would fix the hugely OP issue. Could be say base +2 at level 1 then scale with the sonic of Thundering Rage (+1 per 10 barb levels) or even just base it of character level since it is a subrace specific power making it +1 at level 1 and +1 every 10 character levels to a max of +6 at 60. Just some ideas to limit this subrace completely destroying in prell but not being too underpowered at higher level.
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Post by Paradoom on Jan 29, 2015 15:29:34 GMT
The new bard subraces (Gnome - Jaebrin and Human - Half-Lillend) could use another look at the feats they get granted (btw. shard has the same issue): No bard needs lingering song or extra music! Scratch those and grant them curse song instead. That alone would be better then those 2 useless feats and a real upgrade. And tank bards (lol even the caster ones HAVE TO be tanks anyway thanks to the massive aggro pulling of the epics) with lower cha have more important stuff they need than more songs to use. In addition great charisma I would grant a substantial add and free one epic feat to use. And those are extremely tight on bards. As it is now, actually a chaos gnome is feat wise better than shard because of that and I will choose that over shard when I reinc my new bard. Gnome - Jaebrin Gnomes get a con boost anyway and you rather need more strength to make checks then this high con. Plus you use a con arty usually anyway... The stats should be different and look more like this: Is | Should be | Str +0 Dex +2 Con +4 Wis +0 Int +2 Cha +6
| Str +4 Dex +2 Con +0 Wis +0 Int +2 Cha +6
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 29, 2015 15:54:04 GMT
Well as I am reading it the fire bonus is not in place of the sonic so giving them +6 fire die, which I think mean a 2d12 would become 8d12 with the change from +3 to +6 along with the sonic Xd1 seems a bit OP.
I can see extra music being of negligible benefit granting IIRC only 4 additional songs per day but lingering I am not as sure about though I forget which song duration feat does what to know which is more important I think have good song length is good while cursed mobs don't live long enough often your party should live long enough to enjoy a lengthy song effect.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 29, 2015 16:21:47 GMT
The new bard subraces (Gnome - Jaebrin and Human - Half-Lillend) could use another look at the feats they get granted (btw. shard has the same issue): No bard needs lingering song or extra music! Scratch those and grant them curse song instead. That alone would be better then those 2 useless feats and a real upgrade. And tank bards (lol even the caster ones HAVE TO be tanks anyway thanks to the massive aggro pulling of the epics) with lower cha have more important stuff they need than more songs to use. In addition great charisma I would grant a substantial add and free one epic feat to use. And those are extremely tight on bards. As it is now, actually a chaos gnome is feat wise better than shard because of that and I will choose that over shard when I reinc my new bard. Gnome - Jaebrin Gnomes get a con boost anyway and you rather need more strength to make checks then this high con. Plus you use a con arty usually anyway... The stats should be different and look more like this: Is | Should be | Str +0 Dex +2 Con +4 Wis +0 Int +2 Cha +6
| Str +4 Dex +2 Con +0 Wis +0 Int +2 Cha +6
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Jaebrin is intended to be an XR upgrade of Shard, which does quite well. The one area I can think that it could use improve is, as you've noted, to give it less CON, but rather than buff strength, which Shard doesn't get, it makes more sense to give it +4 DEX, which Shard does have. So perhaps a better spread for Jaebrin would be: DEX +4, CON +2, INT +2, CHA + 6.
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Post by Paradoom on Jan 29, 2015 17:06:46 GMT
I think you have that backwards. Looking at the subs half-lillend is more suited to be the successor of shard and made to be sort of a tank bard with dex focus. jaebrin goes more into the caster direction and hence I suggested what makes more sense. Dex would also work but with my suggestion you get it better balanced and can make more out of the caster abilities.
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Post by bazukar on Jan 29, 2015 22:15:01 GMT
To be perfectly honest I'm not sure why you'd want to upgrade shard. It's not a very good bard subrace. As paradoom mentioned, two of the feats are garbage and should never be taken, and the stat spread is meh. Chaos gnome is actually the perfect bard subby, it's only downside being it doesn't have the stat budget of a BUR sub. If anything, I'd love to see that sub upgraded. I honestly prefer half-guard over shard for bards, even caster ones. I'm also going to support paradoom's stat spread, it would be extremely ideal for almost any bard archetype.
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Post by bazukar on Jan 30, 2015 22:54:55 GMT
So I was going over the favored of gruumsh again and I have come to a few conclusions.
Wisdom is completely and utterly worthless on a staffmonk. In every way, shape and form dex is a better stat. Wisdom gives me nothing but ac and a will save, which I would typically take legendary strong soul to bolster anyway. (or pal/blk splash) Dex gives me reflex and ac, as well as bonuses vs many checks. Any endgame focused staffmonk build would either use something like koly or half moly which have wis penalties, or half guard which has no wisdom bonus.
The wisdom bonus should be removed and allocated elsewhere. My vote is at least 2 points to INT. Staff monk is an extremely skillpoint tight build and having a -2 base penalty to the archetype negates many of the stat boosts that this sub grants.
Looking at the feats granted.
Epic feats. Armor skin and epic prowess need to be taken out of there pronto. Monks have terrible epic bonus feats and automatically granting those 2 means I have to take power and sup crit, or something even worse. I would suggest weapon spec feats, or great str/dex.
While weapon focus feats are fine I'd hope that enough pre epic feats are added so that it isn't better to go koly if I want to WM splash, while not making a fighter splash seem redundant because all the good feats are granted. Consider options for expertise and maybe dodge, or ease the later requirements for OC/DC by giving prereqs for that. Remember that Staff monks are damage dealers first; utility and/or tanking are second.
The 5% conceal boost should go and be replaced with something that increases damage. It doesn't fit with the theme of a staff monk and even my 22/13/5 has enough conceal and ac to sit at a 85-90% dodge rate. If the current position regarding quarterstaves being 1 handed weapons is going to stand, give me a reason to make a staffmonk in the first place. Maybe for this sub Qstaves are 2h weapons again.
A stat possibility for this sub would be
Str 6 Dex 4 Con 2 Int 2 Heck, give it a -2 wis pen and throw 2 more int on the table.
Feats
Weapon and epic weapon spec quarterstaff, Dodge, Power attack, Expertise.
Having these feats basically opens up any and every class combo for this sub. You aren't chained to either fighter or WM, yet both would still be viable choices and this sub is now clearly superior to koly.
My only real problem is coming up with something comparable to 5% conceal besides treating quarterstaves as a 2 handed weapon again. I'm not sure you guys realize how strong that is on a monk.
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Post by arek on Feb 8, 2015 14:38:38 GMT
A new special for FO Grummsh? Hmm....How about a 5-10% damage boost when wielding a quarterstaff? It's not much, but making it so that qstaffs are considered 2h weapons again for this race is probably OP in general and may end up being redundant for monks later. Also, with these changes, Bazukar, how does this compare with Half-Ogre Mage for Staffmasters? -- arek
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Post by bazukar on Feb 8, 2015 20:53:32 GMT
Hadn't really thought about comparing it that way. I wouldn't use HOM for a staffmonk, but I think the HOM is definitely stronger for its intended class than FOG is for staffmonks. I consider it a moot point though, as both classes have pretty much disappeared from the landscape following the Qstaff nerf.
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