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Post by desocupado on Mar 29, 2015 19:48:49 GMT
I feel like this discussion is a little too premature - we should wait for limbo to pass judgement While there's limbo to factor stuff (and balance changes) there's still a considerable gap between tanks and casters. ---------------------------------- For the non-cores with core abilities (except damage, that is more widespread) we have: 1 - Shifter (instant-kill, songs, disables, damage) 2 - pm with instant-kill and curse song 3 - warchanter (alternative bard, mostly) 4 - herald (mild instant kills - cloud kill & rebuke) ---------------------- But many class get nice stuff in ridiculous lower power magnitudes compared to cores - consider xDD/barbarian's fear aura vs battle tide + prayer, CoTs SR vs druid / mord. Pally/BG turners versus cleric.
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Post by chirality on Mar 29, 2015 20:51:54 GMT
CoVD ring has augury. Just saying... My sarcasm was too extreme? No baz, I'm not trolling you at all. I'm totally agreeing. Everyone knows staffies are very inferior tanks. It'd be idiotic to argue with such a flawless thesis. I believe you when you say staffies are very inferior. I really believe you. It's just a shame you never realized that they're very inferior due to being buff-dependent, up until AFTER they lost 2h dmg. I don't ever recall seeing complaints about staffy defense anywhere ever, until now. I've never once heard a staffy during a run complain that the class is inferior because they lost their buffs. In fact, they're usually making every other tank jealous as hell because 90% conceal is downright ridiculous. And don't be so selfish: MSD pwns EVERYONE lacking an active augury buff. What makes your staffy so special? It loses it's primary defense mechanism, but then again EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME HAS CRITICAL DEFENSE MECHANISMS IN BUFF FORM, WITHOUT WHICH YOU WILL DIE QUICKLY (FoM-->permadom, neg protection -->neg kb/inflict, UEF/song-->lost your AC, the list goes on and on, but a staffy can selfbuff his conceal after losing it/dying, whereas most other non-high demi tanks are left with terrible AC (their primary defense mechanism, which works a lot worse than 90% conceal btw) until someone else fixes it for them). It's just hilarious that augury was invented and then given to us via an item, so even non-divine casters can benefit from this amazing buff defense, but even that's not good enough! Gosh this game is so hard Don't worry, Baz. I have a brilliant solution to the problem of staffmasters being inferior buff-dependent tanks: give staffies back 2h damage, and we can rest assured that, miraculously, the buff-dependent problem will disappear overnight. It's (been) pathetically obvious that you're just (still) butthurt about quarterstaffs losing 2h damage (don't look so surprised, I'm not clairvoyant, it's just that it's the ONLY thing you post about).
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Post by bazukar on Mar 29, 2015 23:00:52 GMT
It's just a shame you never realized that they're very inferior due to being buff-dependent, up until AFTER they lost 2h dmg. I always felt this way. I just avoided you like forum cancer until you decided to start some weird forum campaign against me as much as my arguments. Oh ok, so you never personally heard it so it never happened right? Thus spake Chirality. Citation needed. None of my, and plenty of other tanks I play with care about that conceal because we have plenty of other tools to mitigate or avoid damage. No. Just no dude. Nothing makes any of my toons special. Nice projection there though. Citation needed. Several classes don't rely on critical defense mechanisms through buffs. The only buff that even comes close in many areas would be a neg pot, which is trivial to reapply. It's not hard to max AC so as not to rely on UEF/song, rather than it being a bonus, and if you have terrible AC without it I hope it's because you are demi x1 in cania/nessus. More verbal diarrhea and attacks. Please Chiralsplain it all to us. Once again trying to score internet points. You sure showed me! We need to have a talk. I wasn't "complaining" about staffmasters defense. I stated my opinion. That's it. Once. And here you come, all fire and brimstone looking for a fight. Am I such an authority in this game that my opinion is threatening? Why do you care so much? It's obvious you are heavily invested in posting at me. Plenty of other people, some who I do not know and others I respect, have disagreed and it has been cordial or created a productive discussion. But not you. This has been a theme between us for awhile now and I'm getting sick of your crap. I made one thread about staffmaster damage. I made one comment about my dislike of their defenses. What the hell is your problem?
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Post by chirality on Mar 30, 2015 0:18:19 GMT
I almost feel bad. I had no idea you were so sensitive. Bro! Bro. Why act like we're enemies, when we've joyously we've trolled eachother for years now. This is a serious relationship. I don't think you're a troll, deep down, and I'm pretty sure you post out of a desire to help improve the game (like everyone else in this thread); but sometimes i dunno. Other perspectives posted in this thread are the result of much more long-term viewed players that are trying to help explain some "subtle" theorycraft that requires a bit more contemplation than the "class" warfare which just refuses to relinquish any breathing room on the forums. Don't take it so personal; when I said "your staffy" it obviously wasn't meant to single out YOUR staffy but "anyone's staffy". What makes "staffy" so special. There, are we better now? Bereft of the sarcasm and trolling, I guess I'd be telling you that there's no reason your staffy should lose its buffs without dying. As for dying, well, I mean ... that's pretty weak...again, what makes "staffy" so special that he's somehow "very inferior" to any other class immediately after dying/buffless? Since when is "tankability @ .01 sec after rez when totally buffless" supposed to be a meaningful indicator of whether it's a 2nd class citizen or a 3rd class citizen? I just don't get your shtick. If it's not about 2h damage then I apologize. In that case, it's even worse than I thought . Staffies suck because they suck, not because they're buff-dependent (really how can you die on staffy, other than the same reasons that any other invincible toon dies, in which case why mention it in the first place?). edit: ok too much trolling. Look, staffie isn't bad. It's become a bit more of a BBoD since 2h update because it no longer dominates dmg logs, and therefore it's both less desirable/valuable to loggerwhores, as well as people who prefer any non-core/utility in the party to be a tank that can tank solidly as well as dish out a lot of damage where and when it's needed (which staffy still can; the clincher is that now other classes can do more/better--but just because someone else beats the staffy landspeed record, doesn't mean staffy isn't still going fast as hell). Unfortunately, it's mainly the contrast between past staffy value/role vs. current, that makes them seem so useless. I don't think they're any worse than any other tank by default of class mechanics alone. However, tanks moreso than casters are ruled by how uber their random gear is, and how much extra juice they can squeeze out of the build by relying upon PLs/demis/gear to do what they don't want to sacrifice in the build itself. Phys damage is simply overpowered in large packets on this mod atm, because a long history of having ele/exo types as main "balance threat" led to the evolution of mobs that are working hard to survive a staffy w/ perfect blackstaff, not a 2her with mega phys. Much the same as RG/fissure dramatically re-established a pecking order, 2h did the same. I mean ok, staffy is inferior now to others, but what's the point of bickering over which class is in 7th place? I took exception I guess cuz the way you phrased it. They ran the tank game for so many years, and absolutely nothing changed except that tank potential power continued increasing, and other classes received the ability to do something better than blackstaff. You're correct: inferior. But to what You could say staffy is very superior, as well, and be correct (very superior to an int-based half-orc paladin). Staffie can still do a lot of damage, and remain virtually untouchable while doing so. Regardless of how lackluster the damage output is now (in comparison to silly 2hers), being a conceal-based tank is an extreme advantage in some runs/zones with heavy inflicts, and in many cases these runs are a lot easier to "not lose bufs" than Hells with random Rajas. So okay, staffie lost its throne, and is now relegated to whatever-non-1st-class-citizenship position that you want to put it. But we'd still take a staffy over a ranger Word. Show'd dat azz!
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Post by bazukar on Mar 30, 2015 0:53:58 GMT
I don't like buff dependent tanks, this has been my position from day one. It's preference and opinion, nothing more. Calling you out for crap posting isn't being sensitive, it's calling you out for crap posting. I'm hardly the first person to do so either, you have been called out multiple times for your TL;DR's and derails. I haven't ever joyously trolled you either, our "relationship" consists of you using logical fallacies and ad homs when I state an opinion or position.
What are you talking about? What is this position? No reason to lose buffs without death? Have you ever ran a staffy in the abyss? Where is this "special" schtick coming from and where is it going? Death is a huge issue for a buff dependent tank. You are forced to stay out of the fight till at least the bare minimum buffs are reapplied. I prefer tanks that can get up and go. Once again, this is my opinion and preference, nothing more. Why are you so threatened by my opinion? Have I become the final arbiter on classes and class balance? My dislike for buff dependent classes is not going to prevent anyone from trying them for themselves, or make them invalid or not worthwhile classes.
If you want to continue your crap posting fine, but do it in the FO. This thread has been derailed enough already and I have been complicit in it, for which I apologize to the OP and others.
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Post by buddhamind on Mar 30, 2015 1:03:59 GMT
This thread, again?
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Post by hfb on Mar 30, 2015 1:17:54 GMT
To balance things for tanks, you'd need to have AI that responded to casters like the threats that they are. Then there would have to be a mechanism by which a tank could interfere with the AI's "plan" in such a way as to make defending the casters a "core requirement." Viability: low, he says speculatively.
One would then see T-ABCD calls since we'd need at least one tank to keep enough heat off the casters to let them do their deadly deeds.
Perhaps, no GV for Arcanes would also be a step in this direction. Not that I like that idea, but it would be one move toward tanks being needed to hold agro. Perhaps a nerf-bat for Gate for clerics whose wisdom is lower than their strength.
Another idea is that all "core" tanks must run with draw foes, or get the option to have draw foes, perhaps.
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Post by chirality on Mar 30, 2015 1:18:11 GMT
Have you ever ran a staffy in the abyss? No, but I've ran with several different flavors of staffy in abyss (flavors include: totalnubhc player staffy, seminub "guilded" normalmode player, "supposed good guild" but still nubbish normal mode player, and skilled normal mode player). I never ran one myself; much like you I find the buff dependency to be quite a turnoff. Needless to say, even the worst flavor staffy I saw in abyss managed to do quite fine, and surely survived better/did more damage to non-trash mobs than any other bottom-tier tank class. What's so special about abyss that makes your buffs impossible to keep? I'm not trolling, I honestly don't understand what you're talking about. I thought you were talking before about MSD ruining staffy's day (the classic #1 complaint of any staffy since a decade+). Death is a huge issue for a buff dependent tank. You are forced to stay out of the fight till at least the bare minimum buffs are reapplied. I prefer tanks that can get up and go. I already addressed this earlier: what makes "staffy" so special in this regard? And again, staffy has a distinct advantage over buffless classes in this regard, by being self-sufficient for their primary defense/offense; the nonbuffers that you seem to worship so much must beg buffs for offense to actually do damage, must beg buffs for defense to actually survive anywhere past desert, and still have to waste precious seconds rebuffing basic neg prot/fom after dying. Get up and go? AC sucks with or without song/UEF and penalties don't effect conceal...how can you translate "buff-advantaged" into "buff-dependent"? Casting the required staffy buffs is really no longer than anyone else who relies on casting 2-4 spell buffs or is seriously fragile. Staffy more fragile? Sure, but that's because it's a wizard holding a giant stick, and it's a pretty black and white world for him: either he has buffs and rapes or he doesn't and is dead or useless till he has buffs. Well, there's a lot of builds that rely heavily on a casted conceal spell, and since we're talking abyss, those guys are in deep poo as well unless they have 140+ ac buffless (which is traded in for a lot of offensive power like staffy enjoys...sounds about fair to me). Poor staffy, woe is he who must bear the terrible weight of standard spellcaster buffs to make himself into a killing machine, and he can recast at whim without bugging some other toon. Once again, this is my opinion and preference, nothing more. Backtracking a bit are we? Either they're inferior, and it's a fact, or you just don't prefer the class, and it's an opinion. Which is it? edit: If it's not a fact, then gtfo/why did you post, knowing that it is just arguing over opinions/stop it. The list you "respectfully disagreed" with was not opinion, it was fact. :)Furthermore, your opinion had absolutely no impact on the overall analysis that was delivered, and negative impact on the goal of the analysis delivery, which had less to do with "which tank belongs in which tier of useless" and more to do with things like "this thread shouldn't exist, you're doing it wrong, but I really want to help you learn how to do it right" (well that's just my biased take ) Have I become the final arbiter on classes and class balance? No, but you're so close. So, so close.
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Post by buddhamind on Mar 30, 2015 1:45:38 GMT
Staffys are pretty good in the Abyss because they can do some really nice single-target damage to bosses-- typically on par with or even better than the arcane. It's also a lot easier to swap weapons compared to the usual kind of Barbarian, and with all the healers in Abyss that's another big advantage. But if I'm on my caster, I'd rather have a barb for the fear aura. On a staffy, if you have it geared properly (i.e. COVD), keeping your buffs up is usually only a problem when fighting that one fiendish Aboleth boss, or when tanking Arcane Oozes. And that's all I have to say about that.
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Post by bazukar on Mar 30, 2015 2:07:57 GMT
Backtracking a bit are we? Either they're inferior, and it's a fact, or you just don't prefer the class, and it's an opinion. Which is it? edit: If it's not a fact, then gtfo/why did you post, knowing that it is just arguing over opinions/stop it. The list you "respectfully disagreed" with was not opinion, it was fact. :)Furthermore, your opinion had absolutely no impact on the overall analysis that was delivered, and negative impact on the goal of the analysis delivery, which had less to do with "which tank belongs in which tier of useless" and more to do with things like "this thread shouldn't exist, you're doing it wrong, but I really want to help you learn how to do it right" (well that's just my biased take ) Making a list like this is a complex thing, many roles/alternatives might vary depending on people’s personal opinion. Obviously the list is not perfect and it was based on my experiences mostly (others would not have been as forgiving as I was, and removed more classes from the useful list, ‘Non-Caster/Caster’). Sorry if I hurt someone’s feelings ^^. Sorry I hurt your feelings Chirality. Can we go kiss and make up in the FO now?
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Post by excruciator on Mar 30, 2015 2:49:23 GMT
I think you two need to make some angry love, the sexual tension is too high.
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Post by tank on Mar 30, 2015 3:03:18 GMT
SM need only recast two spells to get back into combat: 1. EV 2. tensers
takes hardly any time at all to get back into the fray
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Post by bazukar on Mar 30, 2015 3:21:00 GMT
Generally speaking I agree tank. Pop up, chug a gv pot, cast EV and tensers, maybe a neg pot and go. There are plenty of situations where it isnt that cut and dry though, and I always try to prepare for the worst. A staffy getting rezzed in the middle of a spawn of nasties can have a hard time getting out, and walking near an elite mary or a jumping malebranche can be a major hazard, not to mention getting slapped by something that dispells before you can use your COVD. I know dispell immunity is great, but it can be hard to wear that all the time.
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Post by chirality on Mar 30, 2015 4:07:40 GMT
Label on Arcane Ooze reads: For best results, wear dispel ring before tanking Why would you think you need to wear it all the time? You swap it on before you need it, and take it off when you don't. I get your pain, because every toon I've ever played is basically instantly dead in any hells/abyss without buffs (unless quick repositioning/gv/whatever), and basically if any of my toons die while under those pens (I have no high demis), you're darn tootin I need to waste precious time rebuffing or I'm going to suck down 2 more possums real quick. But I just don't see how staffy is so much worse than anyone else, either in terms of being buff dependent, or on requiring rebuff to be useful. If you're a bard tanking an arcane ooze without dispel imm, and you lose your conceal? That hurts bad too. If you possum yourself? Tbh more buffs than a staffy "needs". Pariah, mage, cleric, ploder? BFM? Stormlord? What isn't buff dependent on an endgame run? Answer: toons that are already uber selfsufficient due negligible pens, uber gear, and PL power. I mean come on, if you don't even need to rebuff after you die in the hardest areas of the game, that's a clear indicator that your toon is not challenged by that area and therefore isn't really an indicator or litmus test of class balance. HS/wrap using toon? Uh yeah, I'd like to keep those buffs, otherwise I kinda waste 2 gearslots and hella tankiness for nothing. Barbarian? Ok, call it what you want, but if not a "buff", shapestrong is surely quite similar or worse handicap/annoyance than staffy requiring recast ev/tens. Monk conceal? I dunno, prolly want to have that conceal up if you're doing something hard, if you lose it you need it back asap right? You don't just run off like Billy Badazz. Cot? Pretty sure "I'm a carpet without div wrath" is the definition of buff dependent, and unlike staffy they have only 5/day of preset duration (ok staffy doesn't have tons of slots but can rebuff more frequently than the rogue 2h wrap wearer or divtank hs/wrap whatever). Anything relying on divine shield (that toon sux btw)? Yeah that's technically a "casted" spell so not only needs rebuff but also vulnerable to silence. I can't think of too much that truly can get up and go faster than a staffy casting a couple buffs and drinking a neg pot and be back smashing away with +20 gmw... prolly bbod rogue/monk (likely bringing little/no value to party other than sentientBBoD/picksearch). I'm not posting this just to troll, I'm honestly trying to come to some kind of shared understanding. As for the troll part from other post: I do not lie. The truth is that the analysis was indeed even more generous than some would grade, and the truth is that anyone reading that post can tell that far more time and effort was spent on it than this thread probably deserved. That warranted respect and thought in response. Again, I think you're posting out of benign interest, and you did approve/etc, so don't think I missed that, but: who cares about what Meh Slot # each tank class goes into? That's not the point, the point is to teach these nubs how to actually do something other than hades; not everyone had the benefit of getting railroaded on guild runs through endgame content until they learned at least enough to get the job done, but even worse, many of those who did get railroaded in the past are now completely clueless how to get anything done now that the train left the station. But everyone wants a free ticket for their tank on the next train to depart. The game could really use some anchoring perspective, and it was delivered. I trolled you because if I can't enjoy this thread, then nobody can I'm selfish like that. Just take a deep breath and empty your mind, and try to understand. Since subtle hints aren't your strongpoint (mine neither tbh, no worries ): it's fact, not opinion You will never be the Balance Arbiter until your opinion shifts to conform to these facts. I cannot emphasize this enough. If you do not read that sh*t and nod your head in complete agreement, you fail at understanding this game on the most basic conceptual level. There is no compromise. Thankyoucomeagain
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Post by bazukar on Mar 30, 2015 4:29:06 GMT
I'm not posting this just to troll, I'm honestly trying to come to some kind of shared understanding. Followed by this. I'll make it very clear for you, since subtle hints aren't your strongpoint (mine neither tbh, no worries ): it's fact, not opinion You will never be the Balance Arbiter until your opinion shifts to conform to these facts. I cannot emphasize this enough. If you do not read that sh*t and nod your head in complete agreement, you fail at understanding this game on the most basic conceptual level. There is no compromise. Thankyoucomeagain You have literally become a caricature. As if I ever aspired to be any kind of arbiter, yet setting yourself up as one deciding what the facts are contrary to the statements of the person that made them and calling someone a failure for not agreeing, and declaring there is no compromise. My hat is off to you sir. Your internet score must be over 9000. Can we go to the FO yet?
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