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Post by sabregirl on Jan 2, 2017 18:44:29 GMT
One of my rules for this speedrun is no server hopping. Hopefully it won't ever be necessary; of course if I can't do the full run under 12 hours, that'll be a problem, but I have high hopes it won't take that long. The idea for the loot respawn is to come back later when it's respawned, I just need to know the respawn time so I don't come back early. I already know the farm, POW, and Zhent respawn times for the sake of grinding, and that'll factor into my routing eventually - returning as often as the respawn will allow, while using the downtime to get other things done. Gate also plays into this, as it will often allow me to warp back to a grinding spot instantly. Well if it's necessary we could hold the reset for you when you're running. But maybe you wouldn't want special dispensation anyway? -S |
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jan 2, 2017 19:12:35 GMT
I think I'll go over all the rules for this speedrun in detail with the reasoning behind each, in case anyone's unsure why I'm doing this the way I am. Nobody asked, and no one's even disagreed, but it's probably still good to have it all in one place and out there.
Rules for "Immortal, All Bosses" category
(I've named this "all bosses" instead of "all tags," even though some tags don't involve a boss, because that will be easier to understand without explanation for a new viewer.)
- No use of the !wallet command, or otherwise transferring gold from pre-existing characters.
Reasoning: The speedrun should be achievable by someone with no pre-existing resources, and this makes the speedrun self-contained. It's not like money is a problem anyway, with the strategies I'm using.
- No use of the chests in the Bank of Waukeen, or otherwise transferring items from pre-existing characters.
Reasoning: Again, this levels the playing field with new players, makes it self-contained, but this time the difference could be huge. Plenty of rare items - especially well-randomized - would make this speedrun easier and faster. We all know how powerful stuff like UR staff and belt, UR-tier AC items, etc. are at level 40.
- Subraces above "Open"-tier are forbidden.
Reasoning: Less meaningful than the item transfer restriction, but still pretty significant as it could dramatically alter the build used. It's debatable that this would save time, since the subrace I'm using has an experience bonus, but it's just better overall to give the speedrun as few barriers to entry as possible for new players.
- No help from other players.
Reasoning: Don't really need to spell this one out. If anyone wants to do planning for a two-person speedrun, though, by all means! That would even be pretty interesting. I won't be doing that myself as this is time-consuming enough and I wouldn't want to have to coordinate schedules with someone else on top of it. There might even be far more uncertainty about which two builds will be fastest. If I had to guess, something like Herald - Arcane Theurge. (Sorcerer is probably still slower because of no Gate, despite having the use of leader porting with the scry, because of both characters needing tags.)
- You must begin on one server and spend the entire speedrun on that same server. No server-hopping; continuing across a reset on one server is probably a bad idea / bad sign anyway.
Reasoning: There's a concept in speedrunning called "single segment." The rules are simple - never return to the title screen, load your game, reset the console, get a game over, etc., it all has to be in one session. For Higher Ground I'm taking this to mean stay on the same server. There are other reasons for this, too. For example, in the middle game, it would probably be fastest to mass kill the Plains of War on several servers, hopping constantly, but that would be boring. Same thing with the opening of the speedrun and the Farm. Having to deal with respawn timers means I have to manage my time well and multitask a bit, it breaks up the early grinding tedium, and quest items are locked to the server you got them on anyway.
- Time begins when clicking "Play" at the end of the character creation menu, and ends when the Immortal Crown is broken by using the Hell Forge.
Reasoning: Every speedrun deals with time, and you need a well-defined start and end point. These are the ones that make the most sense to me.
- All tags listed by the command "!list acc prell" must be obtained. If your subrace would never need one of the four rings - Waterbreathing, Levitation, Firewalking, Passwall - then you don't need to get that ring.
Reasoning: The command doesn't show rings you wouldn't need due to your subrace, so I'm not requiring them. Only the Halls of Horror is a decent detour, and it's not a very interesting one.
I'm pretty sure that's everything. TL;DR - Get all pre-LL tags, don't transfer any resources in, play solo, use an open subrace, and don't server hop. Run ends when you break the crown.
Finally, keep in mind, these are MY rules. If you make your own rules for your speedrun, more power to you - we just won't be able to compare as it'll be apples and oranges. Speedrunning is for fun and I can't and shouldn't tell you what to do. Plenty of games have oddball categories just because someone wanted to try it, so just do speedrunning how you want. I'd be really interested to see anyone else's attempts at speedrunning this game in any way - maybe you'll even discover something I didn't think of for the speedrun under this ruleset!
One thing I would recommend, if you do speedruns of HG in any capacity - get tags. It would be incredibly boring to skip them, just a mindless series of grinds from 1 to 40.
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Post by condude on Jan 2, 2017 21:40:58 GMT
I might give a speedrun a go over the Summer. I'd probably use a pure sorceror, and would avoid using your notes. I would play by those rules though.
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Post by Torin on Jan 4, 2017 17:11:10 GMT
At Lolth run, normally at least two players a needed for the two levers. Only an arcane with gate (and conjuration focuses) can do it alone with teleport. That limit your speedrun rules to arcanes. I would suggest to allow at this particularly situation that a second character can pull the lever for more flexibility on possible builds.
I've soloed it all but must say that I need at least three hours for Lolth and Immo, each. I don't think this (all bosses) can be done in twelve hours.
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Post by sabregirl on Jan 4, 2017 19:59:29 GMT
At Lolth run, normally at least two players a needed for the two levers. Only an arcane with gate (and conjuration focuses) can do it alone with teleport. That limit your speedrun rules to arcanes. I would suggest to allow at this particularly situation that a second character can pull the lever for more flexibility on possible builds. I've soloed it all but must say that I need at least three hours for Lolth and Immo, each. I don't think this (all bosses) can be done in twelve hours. The levers actually stay pulled for a while. You might be able to pull it off with a monk just running from one to another. Course the monk might not be able to do all the other tags . . . -S |
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jan 4, 2017 21:53:49 GMT
Well, keep in mind reincarnation is a thing. So for a two-player speedrun, one could be the nuker for the late game, and one could reincarnate at 40 into a monk able to handle the levers, and that build could also potentially be very strong in the Abyss. Relying on cloud spells down there is pretty slow, whereas for example a devcrit monk build would smash face pretty hard. There are also quite a few very nice monk glove fixed drops in the late game, and I think some decent kamas as well. The sticking point would be survival against the Immortal... while I'll have ~100 AC, Interposing Hand, epic wall, and crit ring, a strength monk would be paper thin. UMD would be recommended, would allow crit ring if the other player isn't using it, or even GS scrolls if your route still includes wizard or allows for scribe feat on a sorc / cleric. Reincarnation in a two-player run could also be more efficient, as one player can reincarnate while the other handles some mundane non-exp task like running somewhere. I am not changing my rules to stipulate a second character for the Lolth levers, it breaks the spirit of the speedrun in my opinion. Anyway you'd be at a significant disadvantage without Supergate, it is incredibly convenient fast travel. Sorcerer can Gate for Lolth, but not between areas as it can't specialize. You'd have to find a large time savings in another class to make up for it, and that class would also need a bonus exp open subrace or you'd be incurring an even steeper penalty. Lolth levers are far from the only reason Wizard is the star of this show. ----------------------------------- Switching gears, I've done some work today with exp bonus weekend off, and my planning's been very detailed this time. I have up through level 12 planned very precisely so far. Level 12 is in fact an important experience breakpoint, as it's when my leveling build gets Circle of Death, just in time for Rat King and Ice Kobold King, making those tags much faster than relying on Oltum alone. I have the experience pretty well figured out for this, and there appears to be about 2000-3000 exp worth of wiggle room to account for number of people online and how many early kills Oltum nets in maps I'm running through. Maybe even more as I might have missed one spawn at the Farm. I was also wrong about the wizard slot ring location, which confused me for a bit. I thought I'd looted it in the farmhouse basement, but it's upstairs in the farmhouse, in the bookshelf. This makes it much more convenient for me to nab a second one, as I can decoy the last room of kids away and grab it in invis - or just not worry about the kids and re-invis fast, like I do in the Dark Glade for the cleric ring. If anyone's interested in checking out my notes, here's the link again: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XYwcLgvGhuMZ42MUCy8g-7CRFfuIr50UeNupcDfaaE0/edit#gid=0I'm color coding everything for readability, doing compressed screenshots of important spellbook changes, including conversation dialogue numbers, and once I get to the point where it's used, I'll be doing screenshots of the exact setup for all Firewall door glitches. Probably also going to do spawn maps for important places, both for stuff like the Farm where I want to make sure I spawn everything, and for stuff like Razhid where I want to avoid as many triggers as I can. My plan for the rest of the day is to do a lot of offline planning and testing. Perhaps tomorrow sometime I can do a demonstration of the route thus far, and get a starting projected time for the segment up to level 18; I'll mention it here as usual when I'm going to do that, and on my Twitter just before I go live - I generally make announcements about going live there. twitter.com/johannhowitzer |
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jan 5, 2017 4:25:06 GMT
At the moment, my primary task is to bridge the experience gap from 13 to 18. At 13, I've just come off my second Farm clear, so that place is dead.
- I'm carrying eight quest items that can yield 18,500 at level 13.
- I can do Ogre Lord / Anduin Fragment circuit and grab five more quests for another 16,000.
This leaves me about 34,000 short of the level 18 mark, or a bit less once I hit level 16 through grinding, as many of these quests are well under the point where their exp yield caps out.
Grinding options:
- I can handle Plains of War, but it's not yet safe until level 16, when I will have a few grabs, Premonition, and GS. Oltum kills Sentinels and Archers decently fast, but struggles on the Elites; I have a 60% chance to kill Elites with U2D, 65% at level 16. Nine Lives rings are an option once I can go toe to toe for a few seconds and live. Tenser's Transformation gives enough AB to make it land, and maybe Greater Stoneskin could be strong enough to keep me alive for the touch attack. I need to test various soak numbers and see what blocks damage.
- Fox Trail enemies are half the exp of POW enemies and don't die significantly faster.
- Umber Maze has a ton of enemies, I can do Ogre Lord circuit right at 13 and get the staff to get down there, but the exp per kill is only about 120 for hulks and lower for devourers. I do have COD and haven't tested their fortitude yet. At level 13 I only have 6 casts of COD, and that place rest spawns. COD is also still suffering from hit dice limit - it tended to kill 4-5 ice kobolds max.
- The Beholder Prison is an option I'd forgotten about until typing up this post. It was part of my old routing around this level and the experience was fantastic, plus everything there dies quickly to COD. I don't have exp data written up for it yet. It's a large map with many enemies and the oltum can safely stay at the entrance. This will also give me killcount credit so that later I can run past everything in GS and snipe the Elder Orb.
- East Road is a place I've never considered to be very good for grinding, thanks to the mages. However, the yield is extremely high at level 4, so I may consider cleaning this place out at the very start of the run. It's a bit too low for the risk and awkwardness at level 13. I'll need to figure out a fast strategy for each spawn to keep myself away from the Oltum, and have it go straight for the mages. Probably want a fresh Protection from Elements on the bird before each spawn to soften the Thunderclap.
I think what I'm going to shoot for at the moment is hitting the East Road at level 4 on the way back to town, then see if that will land me at 14 by the end of second Farm grind. I will also switch the spells up so I get Greater Stoneskin at level 12, and test the soak against POW enemies. Then at level 12-13 in the re-routing, go to POW > Farm > POW if possible, if that nails level 16, I can dump all my quests for level 18 right away. If Tenser's isn't good enough for Nine Lives touch attacks, I can use True Strike and boost my strength a bit. I think the Sentinels and Elites are using dire maces as well, which should be much more survivable with 10/- bludgeoning belt.
Having more experience early on will also help me hit 12 sooner, probably needing to turn in less quests, which will bleed a little bonus past that mark as those quests may yield a little more experience.
If I'm still short after all that, I'll hit the Beholder Prison, or maybe just do it anyway for the killcount and save a few quest turn-ins for down the road. I guess I kinda talked myself into some kind of solution.
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Post by condude1 on Jan 5, 2017 4:25:33 GMT
Just as a note, only popping the loot breaks invis, picking it up doesn't. If you roll initiative, you might even be able to do it before they react.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jan 5, 2017 5:38:34 GMT
Yeah, I was talking about the popping. It seems that initiative or no, newly spawned enemies take a little while before they'll notice you popping loot near them. When I've popped the Priest's Circle spot in the Dark Glade as quickly as possible when running up to it, the Drow usually ignore me; if I use my familiar to bait a few away (never works to bait all of them), they notice me immediately, like they've been "woken up" by my familiar. Seems like a quirk of the engine.
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Good news, with Greater Stoneskin, elemental resistance, the bludgeoning belt, and Tenser's / Endurance boosting my HP over 200, the sentinels aren't a threat for the timeframe I would be using a touch attack on them. They open up doing mostly single digit damage. Crits would probably be 30-40 damage. Elites I will need to be more careful around, as the physical seems to be +5 or higher and Greater Stoneskin can't stop it. Nice thing though is I don't even need the Oltum to finish them off, I can just cast extended Elemental Shield, which also helps protect against sentinel crits. For archers, just invis - they're probably dodgier with the touches anyway. I can even let the birdie handle some archers while I run around the corner and knock over some sentinels solo. Shouldn't be hard to make a sweet route around the POW that doubles up like this - four of six archer pairs are near a wall corner.
So that's that, I can handle the POW as early as 12 if I need to, with 10 AC. Just gotta figure out how many times I'll clear it and multiply by spawns on the map, then buy that many charges' worth of Nine Lives rings in the starting shopping trip, plus a few for the odd touch miss, and toss them all in a bag. Or, if I can find a way to congest my inventory's first page during shopping correctly, buy them all into the second page, which will allow slotting them all while running to the POW. Running with a bag open closes the bag.
Another few fun things:
- I may actually be ditching the Oltum in Crop Storage and letting him despawn, then picking him up before the Rat King / Ice Kobold trip. Having to lug him around as dead weight for the kids and quest turn-ins is pretty cumbersome. Just gotta time his respawn to be sure. As re-acquiring the Oltum would happen at level 12, it will be convenient to stick a POW clear trip in there. I may also be able to find a later spot to drop him. Once I hit 18, he should be obsolete save for occasional POW companionship.
- Restless' AB tops out at 35, slightly higher with flanking. This means 50-55 AC is the minimum for solo massing, can get away with 50 probably with mage defenses. If I am able to hit that in robes before 30, POW mass will become a part of the run between other things; the late 20s are kind of a tag/quest-dead period where grinding has to take over. I have greater necromancy... I'm considering moving greater evocation earlier for this and taking Sunburst. We'll see if that's worthwhile. Sunburst massing POW is a strat I would use with serverhopping in hardcore to power from the low 20s up to 30 safely. Hopefully lack of Premonition won't be an issue; I have to bar Divination to get Supergate.
- I've started to place a lot of small tasks during the delay of teleport gems, such as equipping items, dropping obsolete items, or setting new spells.
- The starting inventory book and note have turned out to be useful - I'll be holding them until I reach the Emporium on my first shopping trip, having put them in specific spots in my inventory so I can drop them and put bags in their places, tidying up my inventory with much less clicking and page flipping.
- I pick up a few Antidote potions while shopping now to deal with any possible poisons from kobold or goblin arrows instead of using the town priest.
- I was using Identify as a spell to make three items usable - the 10/- bludgeoning belt, the sheath, and the flag. I forgot that Lore skill would be a thing, so now I should be using that instead.
- I also forgot that Crypt Thing is 15 cap, not 16. This means if I want to use GS to get the Fingerbone quest item, I'll need to be holding level 15 with enough experience for 16, and hopefully one of the floors is a safe rest zone, otherwise I'll have to rest in town or abandon this quest, which is a maximum 4000 experience.
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Post by chirality on Jan 5, 2017 9:37:28 GMT
There's a concept in speedrunning called "single segment." The rules are simple - never return to the title screen, load your game, reset the console, get a game over, etc., it all has to be in one session. k |
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 5, 2017 16:05:55 GMT
Nice work on the PoW! - East Road is a place I've never considered to be very good for grinding, thanks to the mages. However, the yield is extremely high at level 4, so I may consider cleaning this place out at the very start of the run. It's a bit too low for the risk and awkwardness at level 13. I'll need to figure out a fast strategy for each spawn to keep myself away from the Oltum, and have it go straight for the mages. Probably want a fresh Protection from Elements on the bird before each spawn to soften the Thunderclap. I agree that the East Road can be worth the time very early on. Since no-one can see invis there, it's a common grind with the bird. What do you buff Oltum with? Iirc, keeping him juiced on Avat's Cosmic Suiciders, speed pots, and whatever you happen to have, was enough for him to do the east road pretty reliably. As you point out, the separation from him is key for avoiding the t-claps. Having him initially stand his ground out of their sight while you position, then calling him to follow-attack, can work ok there. Like summons, darting in to feed him the odd heal pot can really bridge the times he gets overwhelmed, but with your meticulous skill and spawn trigger/control you'll probably avoid most of that. |
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Post by madzapper on Jan 5, 2017 17:19:11 GMT
- I can handle Plains of War, but it's not yet safe until level 16, when I will have a few grabs, Premonition, and GS. Oltum kills Sentinels and Archers decently fast, but struggles on the Elites; I have a 60% chance to kill Elites with U2D, 65% at level 16. Nine Lives rings are an option once I can go toe to toe for a few seconds and live. Tenser's Transformation gives enough AB to make it land, and maybe Greater Stoneskin could be strong enough to keep me alive for the touch attack. I need to test various soak numbers and see what blocks damage. You could always go less agressive in PoW and still grind early with good rewards. It does take a little practice, but I usually do PoW around level 7 or 8 (up to around level 13) with Oltum very reliably and I pretty much just use one defensive spell. |
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jan 5, 2017 18:24:28 GMT
Yep except you conveniently forgot to quote the part where I said I'm taking it to mean "stay on the same server," not any of the things single segment traditionally means for other games. Context more please. Mostly Displacement. I find that keeps him alive extremely well in both POW and East Road - I just have to be careful that Thunderclaps don't wear him down. |
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Post by johannhowitzer on Jan 5, 2017 18:51:46 GMT
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Post by Torin on Jan 5, 2017 21:57:40 GMT
Haste on Oltum is important.
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