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Post by PapaSmurf on Aug 19, 2004 4:21:18 GMT
I got stomped on tonight by someone I pickpocketed about three days ago, and starting asking questions about how killin pickpocketers should be handled. Well to make a long story short (there was a big discussion on the server tonight) I came up with a few things I'm going to follow and hopefully other players will to. If I pickpocket you and you kill me before I reach town or another acomplise, (or if i just forget to sell the item I stole from you) I will give you the items back that I stole from you If you ask me, if you dont ask me, that means you forgot to search my corpse for your item and I keep it. If i get to town I will either sell, or stash you item so in the spirit of roleplaying killing me will not get you your item back because i will not have it on my corpse. However if I give you your item back after you kill me that means our beef is done and settled, you cant come hunting me whenever you feel like it, and you cant kill me with your lvl 40 character if I robed you lvl 22nd. Now if for some reason you cant kill me even though your character will always be of higher lvl than me, I have nothing against you offering a reward for another player to kill me, in shout mode. The shout mode is so that if I can be sure im not giving you item away to some yahoo who just killed me and asked for your item even though you didnt ask for help. There is a lot of trust involved in this proposal but I will not lie about it, (I'm not chaotic evil) But if I get to town or do a hand-off with another char then your s.o.l. Hopefully this will make my pickpocketing a little bit less agravating to you, and I will get killed just a little bit less a win win situation. -The most infamous thief in all of assencion.
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Post by Lokison on Aug 19, 2004 7:34:30 GMT
Tough luck people if smurf grabbes an item and the only way you know he got it was from a message NOT stating that he pick pocketed you. then you are acting on metagame knowlege and forfit any right to the item you cant prove was yours (by rp rights) its valid and totaly in the spirit of the game.
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Post by Mesron on Aug 19, 2004 8:40:52 GMT
Well.. here is how I see it... .
I love playing a Thief in AD&D... I find the dark underworld of thieves to be very intriquing.
Pick-Pocketing is part of a thief's role-playing, and it's what thieves do. A thief is a thief because of his love of greed. And he will do whatever it takes to quench that greed... The end result is scheming and theft. Afterall have you ever heard of a thief doesn't steal? He wouldn't be a thief then would he? A thief if given the chance will steal everything that is not nailed down! And what is this nonsense about the ethics of pick-pocketing? Thieves dont live by the ethics of of fair play. Such would compromise their very nature, which can be summed up in a single phrase; "By any means necessary".
All said and done Papa Smurf, you were pick-pocketing, got caught and killed by a not so happy brute, who found his inventory a bit lighter through your good graces. But thats life in the dark underworld of the thief. Every Thief is fully aware of the potential consequences of his actions... and death is a very common result of fatal errors.
In the world of the thief, the crime was never that you stole something. The crime was that you got caught.
Furthermore, Never offer to give back anything you stole. You're a thief for pity sake! You never give anything back that you worked hard for.
Now if you are looking for a course of action in the true spirit of Role Playing; I suggest one of the following courses of action if you want to "even the score a bit".
~Gather up several fellow guild members and hunt the guy down, and give him a good going over.
~Hire an Assassin player to hunt him down and kill him.
That would be true role playing of a thief.
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Post by PapaSmurf on Aug 19, 2004 12:46:33 GMT
Its not so much that im giving the item back. What Im saying is since you cant search a corpse's body because of the mechanics of the game. That if you kill me and i still have the item in my backpack, you could type something like "I'm going to serach hacks body for my missing items." When they do that its not really fair for me not to give the item back, because in a pen & Paper game they would find their item. So if they role play their killing me out (which is supposed to be done whenever you go PvP on this server) I will give them their item back since they cant actually take it from me. (A downfall of the game.) Lokison to has a point, most of the people I steal from would have no idea that Ive stolen from them, if it wasnt for the script that makes it so that whenever you find an item it says so above your head and it makes you come out of hideing. I havent failed a pickpocket check since i was around 3rd level, so no one would have ever been the wiser and i wouldnt have this reputation. Some people just kill me on sight, wheter ive stole from them or not Now I'm not complaing about this, I knew I would be one of the most hated players when I started stealing others hard earned cash and items. But I'm a thief I dont care about that. Im just trying to make my pickpocket more of a roleplay experince for everyone, not just me. Maybe their could be some scripts enable or diabled for pickpocketing. I dont know anything about scripting so I dont know if its possible. But here are some I thought of: 1. Disableing the script that shows the item above your head when you find items, maybe make a variable that it does not apply to items of lvl 15 or higher, or a certain gold piece value, as people tend to keep a closer eye on their more valuble posecions. 2. Make a script that if you kill someone who has stolen goods in their backpack you get them put into your backpack. (the only problem this might cause is people killing mejust to see what ive stolen that day) 3. There is already a script that makes you wait like 5 seconds before you can use pickpocketing skill after youve pickpocketed. Either make that longer, or make it so that if you steal a high lvl item maybe 15th you have to wait longer like 60 seconds. This would be very nessicary if you disable the item above head thing, beacuse otherwise people would look in their invontory and have nothing in there. And it would stop over-use of pickpocketing one person.
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Post by InsanityBringer on Aug 19, 2004 14:42:06 GMT
Well, the player searching your character's body for their items would be good in rp... but if they're actually going to search it, why wouldn't they just take everything? What they can't use, they can sell. I would take everything.
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Post by FormerAdmin on Aug 19, 2004 20:04:18 GMT
A Thieves ethics, are quite simple! 1) Thieves steal to survive, and WILL steal anything possible to further their own riches. 2) There is an inner honor amongst Thieves, where one Thief protects another. 3) From any person you steal from, you should also be ready to slice his throat. Ruthlessness is the upmost important factor. 4) If you get caught in your adventers: RUN, fight, or defend yourself! 5) A good thief NEVER admits to stealing. 6) If incapable of killing someone who is hunting you (or groups for that matter), look for an Assassin to take up Bounty on the players head. We fully support Bounty Hunters (You can't just run around as a mercenary: to be a Bounty Hunter, you MUST have levels of assassin, or else you will have to answer to the DM team). 7) Your riches are your livelyhood: bank the items you steal, and keep them as a token of your powers! Viva la thief! HG needs more roleplay, and Thieves/Assassins are going to kick things up a few notches! ;D In the words or Emeril: BAMB!
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Post by Gaidin on Aug 19, 2004 21:14:20 GMT
Yeah, on pen and paper you would strip anyone you killed clean of everything you can carry. I get what hes saying tho, if you kill him for stealing your stuff you at least should take back what is yours. Or something. I mean if he steals some high level piece of equipment what the risk if he will just respawn with it after hes 'stopped'.
Maybe there is some way to have the authroties in town handle it. Like if hes actually caught pickpocketing in character, the person who caught him can then tell the authorities who upon seeing him get it back. I dont know much about pickpocketing, but if he catches em a variable is assigned that indicated to the authroties he would like to report a crime in conversation. A variable holds the name or id whatever of the one caught stealing and then the authorities try to get the item back (run up on him and engage him in convo). (then maybe persuade and bluff skills dont become useless and he can try to bluff the authroties)
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Post by Terren on Aug 19, 2004 21:19:02 GMT
The problem I have with the pp'ing in NWN is there is not really any substantial down-side to getting caught. Ok, I kill you and you lose a little XP if you're not rez'ed. But in return you get an item that my character may have worked for days getting. The thief has little risk and potentially huge reward and the victim has big risk and little real justice.
If the thief when killed after pp'ing was in jail (couldn't play that character) for a real world day, that's real punishment. Or if the thief loses big xp (like a level), then the thief has shared risk. This makes the game more realistic and that seems to be what the thieves say they are trying to put in the game. But, I doubt they will like my proposals since now they risk little. It's all in their favor.
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Post by FormerAdmin on Aug 19, 2004 21:20:37 GMT
Thats silly.
So you are saying, just for people to want to use Pick Pocket, they have to have a high persuade now too?
I say nah uh.
The way it works: if someone sees that they are being pickpocketed, you kill the thief, and teach him his lesson. It is ALL UP TO THE THIEF on whether he gives the item back, or not.
However, if you do not see yourself being pickpocketed, and are told through word of mouth of another player, than there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it: it is a legit skill, and you did not protect yourself properly.
Having the Town Guard defend players who get items stolen, is silly. Considering you can't steal inside of town, and the Guards have NO jurisdiction outside of Ascension: why would they even care?
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Post by Guido Work on Aug 19, 2004 22:09:21 GMT
However, if you do not see yourself being pickpocketed, and are told through word of mouth of another player, than there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it: it is a legit skill, and you did not protect yourself properly. I agree completly with this point. if i dont catch you then too bad for me (maybee i'll get Lance to sit on you for a while or something) The way it works: if someone sees that they are being pickpocketed, you kill the thief, and teach him his lesson. It is ALL UP TO THE THIEF on whether he gives the item back, or not. However i dont agree on this point, if i DO detect you i ought to be able to do more than just kill you. Espically if it took me 40 lvls and a trip to the abyss to get the item, loosing a messly 5k XP and some gold aint enough. i'd like to see a real punishment enforced for getting caught (again if i dont the too bad for me) such as a larger XP loss and a public stoning (petrify the thief in town for a real day for all to laught) or something similar with some weight to it as sbradley suggests. maybee if i kill a thief who stole from me i get thier ear, and i can turn it into the town gaurd. next time the little snotbag turns up on the server the gaurds petrify him and put him (or her just to avoid the rath of the pickpocketing ladies out there) in front of rowan tree as an example to all who get caught
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Post by Anonalbe on Aug 19, 2004 22:15:41 GMT
I'm kinda fuzzy on how PP works.... does a thief have to change their relation to you to hostile before they can PP you?
And are you allowed to pre-emptively kill the thief if you suspect they are about to PP you? Since some of my chars are lawful good, it would be typical RP'ing for those chars to hunt down and punish the evil thief who's terrorizing the community anyway, would it not?
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Post by FormerAdmin on Aug 19, 2004 22:16:24 GMT
Actually, I have been thinking about a system, much like the ear you suggested. Althought using an ear, is out of the question (I dont want to rip off Diablo).
I do like the idea, nonetheless. That will give the person who killed the player, a chance to barter for their item back. If the thief gives the item back, you give him his "ear" back. If he decides he wants to keep the item, you go give the "Ear" to the authorities, and SOMETHING will happen.
Got to work it all out. We are trying to increase roleplay elements, on the server.
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Post by Slayer on Aug 19, 2004 22:19:54 GMT
*sighs the sigh of someone who knows he'll be doing all the work for this
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Post by FormerAdmin on Aug 19, 2004 22:23:24 GMT
Anonalbe: no, you cannot go hunt a Player, unless you have complete reason (i.e. the said player attacks, steals from, or kills you). Of course, if you take Assassin levels, you are welcome to become a Bounty Hunter, as I said. But again, Bounty Hunters must abide by regulations, too. They cannot go out killing aimlessly: they must work with purpose and explicit intentions.
And the way pickpocket works, is if you are trying to PP a neutral character (not on dislike), you have to roll a DC of 20 in order for your attempt to not be detected. However, if the character is hostile, you have to roll a DC of 30 in order for your attempt to not be detected, making it much more difficult to steal from a hostile player. So, I suggest two things: put some skill points in Spot, and also, if you are feeling threatened (You feel a thief is amongst you), put that player on hostile! You are always free to defend yourself: just not attack without reason.
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Post by FormerAdmin on Aug 19, 2004 22:26:30 GMT
*sighs the sigh of someone who knows he'll be doing all the work for this Oh stop the whining, you! I believe it was you who expedited Java from doing anymore toolset work, was it not? And anyways, I was planning on researching pre-existing scripts, Slayer, to save you time and effort. So sit back, relax, and have a cold one on me. ;D
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