|
Post by simpetar on Jun 9, 2020 14:51:48 GMT
but i'm sure i'm wrong and being unreasonable about all this, my bad You are not being unreasonable, just wrong. This is precisely where you are wrong, maybe you missed an update. You do NOT need to kill a demon lord before attempting to kill them as prince. You just politely hand 4 (other) fragments over and impolitely kill the prince. No abyss run needs to happen twice any more in the same cycle. As of update 2016-03-17: - It is no longer necessary to make two trips through the Abyss to initiate a fight against one of the demon lords as the Prince of Demons. Should there be enough players in the party with the correct wand pieces, you can now immediately hand over those wand pieces to the demon lord in conversation. Old pacts can and should be discarded, as they are no longer used. At the same time, you started getting a wand piece from prince if you hadn't defeated that prince before and you were just helping.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 14:53:06 GMT
No one is asking for anything beyond how the system has been operating for years and explaining how it has operated for years to support the ask. If the system is changing or this conversation highlights a need for change, then okay. That doesn’t change the fact that as presently constituted, for some reason a wand wasn’t assigned under conditions it historically has been, a person in the same scenario as the OP was in party and also received the wand, and a DM was in party through out the interaction.
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with your logic here at all.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 9, 2020 14:59:45 GMT
No one is asking for anything beyond how the system has been operating for years and explaining how it has operated for years to support the ask. This can't be accurate, because that code has not changed in years. Funky
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 21:38:37 GMT
Read Simpetar’s post. It’s been this way since that update, at least, so you’re at four years right now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 21:40:38 GMT
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 9, 2020 22:36:04 GMT
We have a note tucked away to clarify the check, per Sabregirl, so I will take a look at some point. Prioritizing release of Mechanus atm.
Funky
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Jun 10, 2020 2:52:25 GMT
can't help but notice both threads revolve around a guy claiming there was no player error but then later admitting there was some potential player error involved due to lack of verifiable records-keeping (aka, no screenshots to prove one way or another, which as always, isn't about proving someone wrong or right, but simply about putting factual information to help understand where the bug is): So interesting enough it is showing on my skull I didn't attune I do have the demogorgon tag now (!list acc), but I don't remember if I already had that from before a reincarnation. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? you can initiate a prince with 4 wands but you damn sure can't with 3, just to be clear on that--and unless you'vee never tagged a given p3, you can't get a p3 tag and wand out of helping a prince (there, does that distinction make more sense? imagine not having every p3 tag in 2020 ) then there's the fact that juiblex isn't a prince, and the buggy free tag (which i may add, both threads happen to revolve around GM/demo, which was broken). still to this day perplexed how exactly tf that was ever a thing... 2016-03-17: - It is no longer necessary to make two trips through the Abyss to initiate a fight against one of the demon lords as the Prince of Demons. Should there be enough players in the party with the correct wand pieces, you can now immediately hand over those wand pieces to the demon lord in conversation. read carefully. first of all, there's a distinction between "trip through the abyss" and "p3". this update note clearly only addresses letting us initiate a prince fight with 4 wands if the 5th wand is the prince in question. because before, you had to get all 5 wands, then repeat the 5th p3 as a prince; update makes it so you can get4 wands and start the prince if there's enough players with that all need that prince and have all other 4 wand pieces. it doesn't say anything about backwards compatibility for the entire Wand of Orcus quest, and it doesn't say that the process works in reverse. If you have all 4 other wands required to start the prince fight, you obviously can just hand the demon lord the 4, and he already holds the 5th. this does not by any means say that if you have less than 4 wands, that being present for the prince fight lets you scavenge the demon lord's fragment from the dust. per wiki: "once you hand over the staff pieces, they are lost forever, regardless of who the recipient is." (just to once again dispel that entire line of argument about the players getting the pieces back after the prince and so forth...) so to me it sure as hell looks like the staff gets assembled and the pieces are lost forever. where is the part about the staff falling back into 5 parts after the prince dies? where is the part about the one piece that the tagging partymembers didn't bring the demon lord because he already had it, now being granted to the non-tagging partymember out of charity? you could literally get an entirely free p3 tag for years, just because it worked that way doesn't mean it was ever intended. and just because somehow people got wand fragments for attending Prince-As-Helper, doesn't mean that it happens every time, because again what happened to me every time was I got tagged up to p2 and either need to go back for a p3-only run to grab that wand, or just return to that p3 for the prince once i have 4 other wands (which is usually where a 2nd of the same prince in a row came from--now the previous prince helper is 1step closer to doing that prince, and everyone else can use other toons that still need that prince, to do the other abyssal layers with the previous prince helper, and they all end up only lacking the wand for the exact same prince that everyone else did previously on other toons--so now it's a fresh batch of toons with 4 wands ready to go straight to that p3 as a prince. the idea of getting the p3 tag and wand from a prince but not being locked out of the portal doesn't even make sense: "Defeating a demon lord revokes your privilege to use the portals from the PoP to that lord's realm, other than the initial portal to the earliest regions of their realm." So did the helper defeat the demon lord, and is no longer able to enter p2/p3 portals? or did the helper not defeat a demon lord, and is now able to use a p3 portal (having tagged and attuned with the prince-tagging party on their way through p1>p3) to return to the same demon lord and get their own demon lord kill and wand fragment? because if the case is that every time you tagged p1-p2 and helped a prince, you get a p3 tag and wand, then by definition you would be only be able to re-enter that layer from the p1 portal. so it should be fairly easy to test. no clue what i was doing wrong but i guess i've been player-error-ing myself out of free p3 tags/wand fragments for years, maybe just like tritone and tega, i just never qualified for the free wand fragments because i already got the tag for all non-prince demon lords or because i forgot to attune. and that's aside from the bugged free GM tag too...hm, so you're telling me that funky devised this system to save a prince helper a normal p3 wandage fight *if* they never got the p3 tag before, but if you've ever received the p3 tag before, you don't get the wand fragment? that's ridiculous. you're telling me that the wand fragment appears in my inventory if i have never killed the p3 before (aka, it works this way one time ever in a toon's career) but for every other cycle afterwards it works just the same as i've been arguing, that you need to use your fresh p2 attunement to do a single p3 for the wand fragment. ok, so i missed the update and i'm wrong (or did i miss the update? i still dont know if the update says it does what you say it does, or if another bug is in play), but this argument for helping a prince and getting a wand kind of loses all of its value if this "rewarding of hard work" only works the first and only time a p3 tag is granted per toon. That sounds more like a means to give prince helpers that never beat the prince even as a normal demon lord, to get the tag for gear, as unless it works this way every time regardless of having already acquired the p3 tag in the past, this doesn't help any tag cycling, rewards, division of labor, progression, inclusion into runs, creation of more runs, nothing. this does literally nothing except let a group of veteran prince-taggers with 4 wands drag a newbie with zero abyss tags to help a prince fight and get their p3 wand out of it--once. cool. hopefully this gets sorted out asap, would hate to see a repeat of this thread again. ever.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 3:37:43 GMT
Thanks for the reply Funky. We appreciate it!
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 10, 2020 4:47:27 GMT
can't help but notice both threads revolve around a guy claiming there was no player error but then later admitting there was some potential player error involved due to lack of verifiable records-keeping (aka, no screenshots to prove one way or another, which as always, isn't about proving someone wrong or right, but simply about putting factual information to help understand where the bug is): This is the gist of why I'm prioritizing Mechanus. Spending a few hours hunting for what is likely a non-bug needs to be based on something a little less shaky before it becomes more important than pushing other development. ...And now we are clearly in the end times, because chir has posted something I entirely agree with. Expect coronazombies. Funky
|
|
|
Post by tritone on Jun 10, 2020 8:06:51 GMT
This is the gist of why I'm prioritizing Mechanus. Spending a few hours hunting for what is likely a non-bug needs to be based on something a little less shaky before it becomes more important than pushing other development.
Thanks for spelling it out, I understand completely that you need to prioritize your time.
However, I will say for the record that I find it really uncharitable to assume user error here.
The only information I didn't provide (did I get the tag (!list acc) or not) would only be useful if someone actually bothered to debug it. The problem is clear as stated in my two posts: two toons went though the same run, both had not defeated a demon prince before, got the same portal attunements, was in the party the whole time, so should've got the killcount.
And yet one of them (dagoon's character "Goon's Pure Saucery" I think) got the wand piece, and the other (mine) did not. I literally asked the party if there was any information I should provide. I was told the account + toon name, and the server + time so DM's could find the fight in the log. What should I have done, played the run with a gopro on to insure myself?
Chirality: I don't understand what you're trying to prove by detail-reading old patch notes. We all know there are many things about this wonderful mod that just have to be learned by talking to other people in game. But I think I understand your idea: maybe goon got the wand because he didn't have the tag before, and I didn't because I already had the tag. And if so, that's a weird rule.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 10, 2020 14:53:10 GMT
However, I will say for the record that I find it really uncharitable to assume user error here.
I'm not assuming it. I just can't rule it out, and it seems likely, given that you do have the tag and can't remember if you did before, and that the code in question has not been changed in a long, long time. I've wasted quite a few literal days in the last 17 years hunting down vaporbugs, and my time is more limited than ever. I'd ask that people doing these runs pay close attention to tags going forward. I completely understand not remembering, and I'm not suggesting you did anything wrong, but it's much harder to justify spending a few hours munging code that could go to other things, without knowing that there's an actual problem. That said, I will be checking logs to see if I can confirm user error, to rule it out if possible (and it may not be), as that doesn't take much time. Funky
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Jun 10, 2020 16:23:48 GMT
However, I will say for the record that I find it really uncharitable to assume user error here. I don't even. Uncharitable? Did you actually read anything I posted? To be clear, it's understandable if you didn't. Frankly, it wasn't even necessary either, since obviously the entire subject and associated reading material is quite arcane and went over your head. However, it would be in your best interest to take the time and effort to understand the nuances of the discussion (after all it is your thread), especially before judging someone's motivation and intent. If you were to pay closer attention, you would discover that, in fact, I only "assumed" user error after all other options had been exhausted. Actually, since we couldn't definitively rule out user error (due entirely to a lack of information, which is a shame considering a DM was in the party, but let's not cry over spilt milk), I was operating under the assumption that it *wasn't* user error, which lead me to explore possibilities such as "the thing that ppl said, wasn't quite right" or "the game is bugged" (again, maybe re-read, you may have missed something somewhere). I won't say I find your reaction uncharitable in kind, although I will say that I find it ever-so-slightly ironic and more-than-slightly insulting. Oh well. You're welcome. The only information I didn't provide (did I get the tag (!list acc) or not) would only be useful if someone actually bothered to debug it. BZZZZZZT. Negative ghostrider. Again, some careful reading is in order since you haven't quite gripped the point here. The information you didn't provide was actually deemed to be of prime importance--by none other than the guy who told you to post here! As previously stated by several, the following are true and have been for years: 1) You are participating as a helper. You have never killed the given boss as a Demon Lord or Prince. You receive a wand and the tag. 2) You are participating as a helper. You have previously killed the given boss as a Demon Lord or Prince. You do not receive the wand and have previously acquired the tag.As you can see, if it wasn't for prepared repeatedly pointing to the old thread (in which, btw, nothing concrete was ever established, and raj's "confirmation" literally ended in the words "In theory."), this probably would have withered away into nothingness just like the last thread. If you're still confused: it's possible (well, as demonstrated, extremely likely even, but I digress) that you already had the p3 tag from a past reinc, which disqualified you from getting what may or may not be an intentionally-coded once-off freebie; and if you had been able to provide that information, it would effectively confirm or deny this theory. Just to be clear, btw, the assumption was that there *was no* player error. If I had assumed player error then why would I have -- wow, did you actually nerd-shame me?? in your own bug report thread?? -- spent time "detail-reading old patch notes"? I wanted to figure out where the game was broken since user error didn't seem to be the only explanation, after so much strident opposition that the game does indeed function the way people said it does. The problem is clear as stated in my two posts: two toons went though the same run, both had not defeated a demon prince before, got the same portal attunements, was in the party the whole time, so should've got the killcount. Annnnnd again, the problem is not clear, since we don't know if both toons acquired the Demogorgon p3 tag as a result of the Prince fight or not. Why don't we know that? Because you don't know whether or not you already had the tag or not. I literally asked the party if there was any information I should provide. I was told the account + toon name, and the server + time so DM's could find the fight in the log. //smth sarcastic about a gopro// I understand your frustration here, but first of all no one was badgering you or blaming you for the lack of knowledge or preparedness (hue), so I don't know why you're taking it personally. Second of all, I don't know why you're taking any of this out on me. I'm sorry that you literally asked the party what to do and they literally didn't tell you the one thing that literally would have turned this thread from a shitpost into helping solve this "mystery" once and for all, probably without wasting anyone's (read:bossman) time looking at code. On that note, I find your comment about "if anyone had actually bothered to debug it" to be rather uncharitable, selfish, even slightly salty of you. This is technically a beta module and you as a player are technically a playtester in this free, community-driven game. You *are* the debugger, which is why it's so head-shakingly ironic to have missed the opportunity with a DM in party, and then get an attitude in your own bug report. Chirality: I don't understand what you're trying to prove by detail-reading old patch notes. If you're still reading, hopefully by now you do understand and you've answered your own question. For the sake of clarity though, what I hoped to prove was the veracity of documentation vs player anecdote vs fact. Yeah dude, you got me--full discolsure, I'm guilty of wasting a solid hour of my life attempting to triangulate YOUR problem. I know I mentioned it above, but I'm more than a bit put off that you seriously went so far as to alpha me for dissecting the relevant documentation. Bruh.... I think I understand your idea: maybe goon got the wand because he didn't have the tag before, and I didn't because I already had the tag. And if so, that's a weird rule. I can't for the life of me imagine why you typed any more than this single line right here. Or why you didn't save us both time and used it as the introduction, rather the conclusion, to a post that otherwise provided no value to either of us. Have a nice day.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 10, 2020 17:02:11 GMT
In the interests of avoiding wasted time, and in an effort for everyone to get along, I'm going to lock this thread. I will post to update it when I have a chance to look at the logs.
Chir, even when I agree with you, you are a bit ...abrasive. I don't share your confusion that he's taking it personally.
Funky
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 11, 2020 4:44:38 GMT
Ok, I had a look at the logs. I'm not able to confirm any bugs, unfortunately. Or disconfirm any. I don't see anything that would have blocked normal tagging, and with it wand fragments.
Funky
|
|