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Post by swiftgabriel on Dec 1, 2020 19:27:48 GMT
First, I want to thank the dev team for all the work they put into the game and this huge update I'm sure took a lot of time to create.
However, I have a couple issues with the update, and as someone who plays everyday for some length of time, I have some different perspectives on this update from those in this forums post. To start, I understand the idea that HS are too "OP" and that 2H tanks needed a nerf. But I would like to say from personal experience from the myriad runs of limbo both I and many players I run with have done, even before the damage dice nerf, limbo still required extremely well built tanks. With more and more people starting to enter into limbo (which is a good thing), tanks who are already weaker from lack of experience and lack of xr gear and xr weapons, are now going much more useless.
My guild runs limbo at LEAST once a day at some point, and even since this update has been release and we ran a p1 with 2 more humans than normal and it took just as long if not slightly longer (due to the need to rest to use the torch for secrets.); as well as the p1 that was run this morning took the same amount of time that it took myself alone to run a p1 alone. A concern I know I have and I'm sure others have as well is if the 2H tanks are being nerfed because they are actually "OP" or because other classes are suffering too much. Classes that aren't being played are being made more interesting but still are not viable limbo toons. It seems to me that these nerfs are benefiting people who aren't actually grinding limbo as regularly as players that do play on the server. Updates to classes that the vast majority of the server aren't playing except some seems to not really benefit the server as a whole.
Yeah it's great to keep the game fresh and fun by buffing new classes, but nerfing classes that made a long run somewhat do-able in a short time (2-3 hour p2h) is just making limbo super unappealing. I do understand that all I'm discussing is Limbo, but these changes will have the most noticeable affect in limbo, and if nerfing 2H tanks is what the devs deemed needed for limbo then I feel very strongly that changes to mobs in limbo (white/death/black) need to be made.
This is obviously just the first update, and things are going to change as more and more people test things out, but from just a players viewpoint, people will still run limbo no matter what as people want canos and xr gear. But with 2H tanks are getting wrecked, I don't think many people will be having fun running limbo anymore and fun is the literal reason we all love and play this game.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 1, 2020 19:38:48 GMT
First, I want to thank the dev team for all the work they put into the game and this huge update I'm sure took a lot of time to create. You're welcome! This is not how game development works. Rather than belabor the point, I'm just going to point out that this approach (ie, always buff the weaker classes up to the current best) would lead to a never-ending power spiral with ever-increasing development costs. It's non-sustainable and a complete nonstarter. I'll refer you to my previous posts over the last two decades on the subject, if you want to search up more detail. Of course, we still want you to enjoy the server, and will continue tweaking. That said, you basically just confirmed you were able to do the run in the same time (and with basically the same loot, thanks to the cano increase. I suggest more playtest to gain some perspective. Also note when you did that same time run you were down an attack per round thanks to a bug that will be hotpatched tonight. Funky
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Post by tritone on Dec 1, 2020 19:41:46 GMT
Also note when you did that same time run you were down an attack per round thanks to a bug that will be hotpatched tonight.
No, we did that run without divine fervor, and without any tensers/divine power users.
The jury is still out on pt2 runs with all the death/black/white slaads
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 1, 2020 19:42:26 GMT
Ok, so you were down multiple attacks per round.
Funky
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Post by tritone on Dec 1, 2020 19:45:56 GMT
I don't understand how a bug in the way extra attacks are added with DP spells would affect a party that doesn't use it. We could bring different toons of course, but that same party doing the run tomorrow after the hotfix isn't gonna get any more attacks per round.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 1, 2020 19:55:21 GMT
It wouldn't. It would, however, affect a party that made use of it to say, reduce runtimes. Put another way, we don't develop on the assumption that people are going to run a homogeneous party with no synergizing of abilities. Funky
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Post by tritone on Dec 1, 2020 19:58:59 GMT
That much is clear. The game and the balance has changed, and our party composition should change as a result. And I at least enjoy thinking up new builds and strategies. I just responded to the comment you made that made it seem like that run (with the same toons) should have had more attacks per round
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 1, 2020 20:02:53 GMT
No, I would have no way of knowing that one way of the other. But if the concern is that prior meta tier builds were suffering overmuch, then you need to look at what was given and taken to and from them, like those attacks. I suspect your runtimes will actually decrease considerably from before, once you adjust. We're also making another raft of edits to reduce slog, in addition to some of the less obvious ones.
Enjoy theorycrafting!
Funky
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Post by dagoon on Dec 1, 2020 20:09:24 GMT
The single biggest issues non 2h have, is defeating the damage resistance on mobs, as a flat value its massively skewed towards larger packet damage.
For my 2 cents, dual wield toons (everything else being equal) should top damage from a balance point of view, reasoning being they’d take 3 extra feats 🤷🏻♂️
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 1, 2020 20:17:55 GMT
The single biggest issues non 2h have, is defeating the damage resistance on mobs, as a flat value its massively skewed towards larger packet damage. For my 2 cents, dual wield toons (everything else being equal) should top damage from a balance point of view, reasoning being they’d take 3 extra feats 🤷🏻♂️ The Team tends to agree re the challenges to dex build damage vis a vis resists. You'll likely see more DR dropping abilities, once we hash everything out. We've also made some mobs in Mechanus with considerably lower resists for this reason, and others which the added attacks from dualing (should) help take down faster - pending playtest, ofc. Funky
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Post by tomaan on Dec 1, 2020 20:20:35 GMT
The single biggest issues non 2h have, is defeating the damage resistance on mobs, as a flat value its massively skewed towards larger packet damage. For my 2 cents, dual wield toons (everything else being equal) should top damage from a balance point of view, reasoning being they’d take 3 extra feats 🤷🏻♂️ Seems to me that xDD/lash and a self-buffing tank will overcome most of that damage mitigation....Pally smiter looking like a potential damage leader when paired with those others.
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Post by boroie on Dec 1, 2020 20:28:34 GMT
Let me preface my post by stating I do not play Limbo (one P1 easy does not count) and I am not a two hander tank user, I have a solitary tank over level 50 and even that is/was sword and board. I looked at the new changes with excitement and eagerly starting theorycrafting new builds because the 'nerfs' did not affect me. Thanks for all the work the dev team put in to this patch, I'm really looking forward to trying a few new builds.
However (there is always a 'but'!) this entire server seems to me to be based around offering massive choice, and min-maxing is almost actively encouraged. There are so many race, multi/quasi class, gear tiers, randomisations, augment combinations, I don't see how else that can be taken. In this case, it seems that one particular class max (2H str tanks) have had their max drastically reduced at the top of the game, which is the culmination of months of grinding, tweaking, gearing specifically with one goal in mind. This seems quite far reaching to me. What is the desired outcome of the change?
If the desire is to introduce further build versatility, then that in itself is a worthy goal - but it has to be examined if all newly enhanced builds will fill the gap left behind. Also the impact of recreating/regearing characters for the players in endgame needs to be assessed.
Limbo appears to be designed as a tank friendly run, yet the changes harm that dynamic. The risk/reward ratio and time investment is already unfavourable to many, and as a result limbo has been relegated to a select few users who minimise human involvement in the runs in order to actually get anything from it. There have been plenty of threads already on XR books, gambling, ratios, etc so I wont cover that ground again. If you want to open up these type runs, it might be best not to harm the class that makes them possible in a (semi) reasonable amount of time. Or IF the damage nerf needs to happen, examine why players were maxing that aspect in the first place. Extremely high SR values require beating things down. Extremely high damage soak and resistance on top of extremely high hitpoints (with optional kickback) requires very high packet damage to surpass in any reasonable amount of time - especially when there are so many nasty effects and critters there in those spawns. Perhaps tweaks to specific mobs may alleviate the requirement for such maxed damage 2handers, and ease the pain. That also opens up the opportunity for less optimised/focussed builds to shine, or to give other melee character types a chance of success.
edit: aha, I see the question asked and answered already, lol. Slow typing...
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Post by woqued on Dec 1, 2020 20:30:01 GMT
What's your take on the patch? Do you like it, hate it?
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Post by Pulpo on Dec 1, 2020 20:40:33 GMT
Not to mix apples and oranges here BUT Couild the team consider lowing XR Race tags on accounts to 75? As it stands very few have the new necessary class combos and we are looking at Months, if not longer, of Demi/Prince wins of having Limbo Ready toons. I.E I just won a Pholarch. I cant even begin to build it until I purchase a new account, level something to 80, Mark the account, THEN make and build it and begin runs.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 1, 2020 20:45:30 GMT
Just to confirm, the max dc for a non-quasi xdd to kill a wind/fume would be 30[xDD level] + 10[update] + [CON Modifier] - 5[update] + 5[fear aura] = 40 + Con Modifier ?
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