|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 23:30:51 GMT
I assumed either base 8 dex or cha with a +16 stat bonus between demix2 and +12 gear (for a total of +7). 26 base charisma for smiter (+20 stat for a modifier of +18) A Dexter would have like base dex 44 for a +27 modifier. It could be slightly (1-4) higher indeed. So in my head it was about 7 round for a neither smiter/dexter 12 for smiter without dex 17 for Dexter without charisma. I think harper should be good regardless of charisma or dexterity - i.e. a good fixed "good" (usable, as in, "feels good") duration. My point about bio was - being "exploitable" by use of consumable makes for a terrible experience when you aren't "rich" enough. I pulled the first HS/CoT build I saw in the Build forum: @-----------------------------------@Final Stats at 60: Strength: 40 (54 with +14s) Dexterity: 16 (30 with +14s) Constitution: 8 (24 with +14s)(arti) Wisdom: 12 (26 with +14s) Intelligence: 14 (28 with +14s) Charisma: 30 (44 with +14s) @-----------------------------------@ Under the new scenario it'd be - and this is with 14s, not 16s - 44 char = 17 mod, plus 30 dex = 10 mod = 27/2, or 15 rounds - 1.5 minutes, times 3 uses. That's a str smiter. so +4, or nearly half a minute, there, once you factor 16s not 14s. The only other posted build there with HS is highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/15744/champion-harp-pally-hs-cot - also a smiter. I don't have time to go through fishing out data to support or contradict other people's assertions - I leave that to those making them. Your numbers just seemed pretty far off those we estimated when figuring out edits. Funky
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 23:41:15 GMT
I am testing on a 59 cleric yes. And yes, they are only getting +1 attack beyond their normal activation. And that means Fervor synergy with these classes is bad. 2 minutes of +1 apr is not good, for reasons I extrapolated on above. If you have a Fervor caster in your group, presumably you wouldn't be using them simultaneously. More importantly, before the edit those classes got 0 benefit from Fervor's lvl 55 attack, meaning this edit had no net effect. Funky
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 23:43:10 GMT
Sidenote: Fervor in previous patch already granted 2 attacks to everyone in the party unlike what Docs and the "attacks explained" -thread stated, to others as well not just the Caster. Incorrect. It specifically did not give you the 55 bonus attacks if: 1) you had 40 or more levels of CoT 2) you had 50 or more levels of SD 3) you had harper boots. Funky
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 23:46:00 GMT
And Harper bard also only gets +1 attack from Tymora's, confirmed on live. Heroism gets him to 6 attacks per round, using Harper on top gets him to 7. I don't understand, I made all these points in my original post and they weren't false upon testing. What did I misunderstand? Read the attack stacking post, and ask questions there. Smile adds 2, not 1. However, it strips the 1, because they don't stack. Hence, nonstacking. Funky
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Dec 7, 2020 23:54:10 GMT
Yes, I got that. I know it grants +2, but for that very specific class, the net gain is +1 hence not worth doing for a short duration buff, in Bards case you don't even benefit from the Skills gained from Harper. That was my whole point all along, it is not worth because of the stacking issues.
And yeah, my "not relevant" was exaggerating, but as an example: we had a pretty hard map2 of Limbop1 hard. We had a specific spawn that we deemed "slow to kill" thus worthy of the strong paragon spell to speed this along, when else to use a strong Paragon spell if not now? We used Fervor. Spawn was still alive by the time Fervor ended, despite us not dying with it during that spawn, with everyone having XR weapons including classes such as a 2h Paladin to make the most of it. So basically it moderately sped up ONE spawn, I'm quite sure Eradicate would've sped it more while also immediately removing a threat from the spawn, without requiring alive characters making use of it for a period of time. And I hate eradicate too. Derail, I know, but just to paint a picture. That cleric spent 3 feats he wouldn't otherwise take to help the team, and that's the net result. Not impressive. Anyway, we can move on, this thread was never about Fervor, I'm sorry about derailing it that way, and for any inconvenience that provided.
That being said, I understand why you're wary of Harper Scout duration, for good reason. But the current duration is not really feasible, and this is coming from someone who will likely never play a Harper Scout ever again even if it was returned to "it's former glory" so to speak, and a build my most frequent playmates don't use either so you can't call me out on that.
Let's do test numbers on duration. I'll use TF builds of three separate builds as reference and I'll even add the Bard even though I don't think a bard should ever splash Harper.
Current Tymora's Smile: (chamod+dexmod)/2 rounds. Let's add STR mod in there for test!
Paladin. 60 (+25), 48 (+19), 42 (+16) modifier total 60, without STR we are looking at 19+16 = 35 Current: 35/2 = 17 rounds. Post-STR: 30 rounds, or 3 minutes (x3).
Fighter. 70 str (+30), 44 (+17), 32 (+11), assuming all modifiers have equal value, we are looking at a total of 58 modifier total. Assuming Dex fighter we'd just add ~~ 6 rounds to pre-STR duration. Pre-STR we are at 28 modifier, 14 rounds. DEX based would be 20. Current: 14 str based, 20 dex based. Post-STR: 29 rounds.
Bard w/Harper: 40 str (+15) 40 dex (+15) 62 cha (+26) net total of 56 modifier, without str we are looking at 41 modifier. Current: 20 rounds Post-STR: 28 rounds.
EDIT: THESE ARE ALL CAPPED OUT AT 80 NUMBERS!
I think that seems fair-ish. Might overall be a buff from previous patch, but with slight added annoyance of more rebuffing. You may consider it a tactical advantage (which it may be, if ppl go afk or if you die), but assuming you don't die and you're just CHOOCHOOing forward, it is a nerf still from previous patch. Shorter duration, one time extra stop to rebuff (takes time, if during combat you lose a flurry or couple doing it). 30 rounds x3 end up net total of 9 mins - so the very ideal poster boy of Harper Scouting, the Paladin!, caps out at around 9 minutes, if he went Harper he'd have +2 extra stats, maaybe could've fit even more extra stats if he gave up some stuff, but even with generosity we are looking at maybe 32 rounds capped out x3.
Edit: and again... nerf on damage dealt, not overall prowess of the splash. Slot gained is a buff, so overall netvalue is a buff.
You may wish to tone it down slightly somehow; like 1/2 modifier of dex+cha, and then 2/5 of str modifier or some other seemingly convoluted but not actually hard to understand formula - but I don't honestly think that is necessary, 3x3 minutes seems ok. Then again, I've never been the biggest Harper advocate and this may just lead us back on the path of Harper dominance for those who like using the splash.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 0:25:20 GMT
I think that seems fair-ish. Might overall be a buff from previous patch, but with slight added annoyance of more rebuffing. You may consider it a tactical advantage (which it may be, if ppl go afk or if you die), but assuming you don't die and you're just CHOOCHOOing forward, it is a nerf still from previous patch. Shorter duration, one time extra stop to rebuff (takes time, if during combat you lose a flurry or couple doing it). 30 rounds x3 end up net total of 9 mins - so the very ideal poster boy of Harper Scouting, the Paladin!, caps out at around 9 minutes, if he went Harper he'd have +2 extra stats, maaybe could've fit even more extra stats if he gave up some stuff, but even with generosity we are looking at maybe 32 rounds capped out x3. I don't see how that's a nerf at all. I suspect you would get 3 encounters out of it, rather than two, plus the advantage of using whatever boots you want. If we do go strength, it would likely be str + dex + cha mods / 3. I'm not convinced that that's the right approach, however. Funky
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Dec 8, 2020 0:29:58 GMT
You are not looking at it from a minmaxer PoV, assuming we are fighting spawns one by one. Say we have 10 minutes of steroids, we wouldn't want to fight encounters one by one, we want to stack em up so we have no downtime. So we have someone spawning monsters constantly before the last spawn finishes, so there is no downtime between spawns in terms of buffs used.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 0:31:21 GMT
You are not looking at it from a minmaxer PoV, assuming we are fighting spawns one by one. Say we have 10 minutes of steroids, we wouldn't want to fight encounters one by one, we want to stack em up so we have no downtime. So we have someone spawning monsters constantly before the last spawn finishes, so there is no downtime between spawns in terms of buffs used. Actually, I am. But we've been putting in some edit to deal with massing cheese, as well. Limbo is already less safe to mass. Mechanus, less so. Funky
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 0:32:14 GMT
I think you have several groups on the server of which the play styles between said groups really don’t overlap. The prevalence of the Harper Scout builds could very easily be attributed to the fact that UT / DT players often play within their groups and those same guilds often don’t post builds. Not always, but mostly. If you review the builds posted on the forums you’ll find that those builds are the ones being built.
If you changed even that piece, you may change the player character build make up. The other difference is that the bulk of the server populace does place with me and my guild which has directly influenced a lot of this. Playing with UT or DT guilds and seeing their toons do things just as great albeit a different route could also fix it.
The fighter / WM / HS build is very expensive and requires a lot of management. Most players copied what we were doing without an appreciation for how those results were realized or what made it good.
Groups like mine, or the UTs or DTs all can reliably do Limbo with ease. All of the Harper boot / Tymora’s smile changes were effective nerfs because as mentioned, when you’re going you’re going and everything that detracts from that hurts that momentum.
3 minutes x 3 uses is a nerf but it helps keep it useable. I’m not looking for overpowered. I am not selfishly advocating for a buff. Do I play this toon? Yes. Do I enjoy this toon? Yes. Do I want to change it? No. But, the feedback is legitimate.
RE: Fervor, I also think two minutes is way too low. I never viewed it as something which I needed up the entire map. It was an Oh Crap button for a rough or long lasting spawn and / or a boss buff. I think it’s previous duration of 6ish? minutes was sound. I think it would need at minimum 4 to even be worth talking about. At present, I’ll be abandoning it from all builds. Player choice. I get that. But there is just no real value there for such a dramatic investment.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 0:33:35 GMT
Why is massing viewed as cheese if it takes the players being able to make it work to even be realistic? Skill, character power, knowledge of enemies, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on Dec 8, 2020 0:55:21 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 1:02:26 GMT
You supported my point exactly. Thank you Mikey.
|
|
|
Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on Dec 8, 2020 1:05:29 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 1:14:19 GMT
This thread is about tanks. The tank builds out there aren't builds posted by you guys, they're all by True. The builds posted by True / used by a lot of people aren't builds used by you guys. That's what I meant. The players on the server are using tank builds posted and used by the players they see performing well with them / available for consumption. There are quite a few builds posted by Raj which fall outside the category which all see heavy use. That wasn't what I was communicating. When the bulk of those builds were posted, True wasn't in DT, and I don't think anyone in DT but True ran the Fighter / WM / HS, which True, myself, Manuka all did which really threw it out there. Thank you to True for all the builds.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 1:30:43 GMT
I think you have several groups on the server of which the play styles between said groups really don’t overlap. The prevalence of the Harper Scout builds could very easily be attributed to the fact that UT / DT players often play within their groups and those same guilds often don’t post builds. Not always, but mostly. If you review the builds posted on the forums you’ll find that those builds are the ones being built. If you changed even that piece, you may change the player character build make up. The other difference is that the bulk of the server populace does place with me and my guild which has directly influenced a lot of this. Playing with UT or DT guilds and seeing their toons do things just as great albeit a different route could also fix it. The fighter / WM / HS build is very expensive and requires a lot of management. Most players copied what we were doing without an appreciation for how those results were realized or what made it good. Groups like mine, or the UTs or DTs all can reliably do Limbo with ease. All of the Harper boot / Tymora’s smile changes were effective nerfs because as mentioned, when you’re going you’re going and everything that detracts from that hurts that momentum. 3 minutes x 3 uses is a nerf but it helps keep it useable. I’m not looking for overpowered. I am not selfishly advocating for a buff. Do I play this toon? Yes. Do I enjoy this toon? Yes. Do I want to change it? No. But, the feedback is legitimate. RE: Fervor, I also think two minutes is way too low. I never viewed it as something which I needed up the entire map. It was an Oh Crap button for a rough or long lasting spawn and / or a boss buff. I think it’s previous duration of 6ish? minutes was sound. I think it would need at minimum 4 to even be worth talking about. At present, I’ll be abandoning it from all builds. Player choice. I get that. But there is just no real value there for such a dramatic investment. None of this addresses the question I posed. Funky
|
|