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Post by Paradoom on Dec 10, 2020 1:39:07 GMT
Anyone seriously using that torch on a character for anything else than that one skill? And now that one thing it was good for got changed. Well the tanks and rogues have now a vestige to pick and for casters it´s just one less again.
It was good as it was. But since the intent was obviously to make it hardly usable on a caster (e.g. wiz with rogue splash) I guess that got achieved now.
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Post by gladi8or on Dec 10, 2020 2:50:59 GMT
Really? That's where this thread has gone? I brought up an issue because a change was made that affected some classes of toons in a negative way. As Paradoom said, you now have a vestige that isn't going to be selected by every class. Is that not counter productive? What part of that is whining? I thought the dev team would want to know when something like this comes up. I doubt the intention of the change was to cause some classes to no longer select one of the vestiges. My original post was agreed upon by two veterans who consistently play the game, yet here it is getting derailed like so many other posts. Call it whining or complaining or whatever you like. I'm done with it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 3:13:43 GMT
Meh, I see it in line with the asmo rod that now requires equipped at rest before use. I think the point is to create a bit of a dilemma when choosing which arti/vestige to use. You can't have it all even though you have defeated the great demon lords! It's not like you are a god... you have to have something to still work for, yeah? And I don't think its a derail to point out the literal complaining about a fixes that were just lower priority on the list of things to do. I for one would love to see the new updates coming and maybe have a chance to see Mechanus soon. Maybe lay off Funky so he isn't sidetracked too badly? I think the updates are seriously great and again super excited to see more things roll out. But I understand how playing a game with an aging population would create less adaptability.
And... this makes the game more challenging. Please tell me you don't think it has gotten too easy.
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Post by horbag on Dec 10, 2020 8:08:19 GMT
i get bouth sides, i get the reasoning of the change, however this is the one vestage i was hoping for to get, no more trying to get to that one search spot in the nessus maze only to once you get there to know it is a dud (seen meny times this can take over 10 min if you are unlucky) so the torch would make it a lot easyer and faster, however, secrets should be secret and not easy to spot
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Post by chainlink on Dec 10, 2020 9:29:46 GMT
If an effect does not match text, report it and it will get fixed, to the players advantage or disadvantage but it will get fixed. Go farm middle water to get potions its not really a big deal I've done on occasion, I'm sure the Richbois here can hire minions to do it for them if they really can't be bothered to do it themselves There is a different discussion that this does raise which is limited use of Abyssal Vestiges other than the Sandals of Perdurance, Horrified Silence or Gaze into the Abyss but that should probably have its own thread. Its name was very prescient 'Brazier of Painful Truth' that truth being that you need to rest to use it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 10:58:45 GMT
Honestly don't see much of an issue besides a -slight- QoL step back. Even then it was never intended to be used in the way it was previously used. How was it actually intended to be used? Let’s be real, the stats on it are so poor that I suspect no player in HG history has ever seriously used this as a long-term equip (and rightly so) - it was only ever going to be used as a swap item, and that hasn’t changed apart from making it slightly more tedious. Is it a big deal? No, but it’s simply unnecessary and nothing more than a QoL downgrade as you already mentioned. While on topic, perhaps Portable Hole and Rune of Return should be 1 use/day, and Waterbreathing items should also need a fresh rest to be activated.
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Post by woqued on Dec 10, 2020 11:16:51 GMT
If an effect does not match text, report it and it will get fixed, to the players advantage or disadvantage but it will get fixed. Go farm middle water to get potions its not really a big deal I've done on occasion, I'm sure the Richbois here can hire minions to do it for them if they really can't be bothered to do it themselves There is a different discussion that this does raise which is limited use of Abyssal Vestiges other than the Sandals of Perdurance, Horrified Silence or Gaze into the Abyss but that should probably have its own thread Slight derail, but there are other vestiges of note as well; they're just more niche. Case in point: confusion helmet, edodge/evasion/hide boots, sneak gloves (but hard to fit, asmo gloves so sexy); fear cloak, exo belt with asmo gloves, crown of corruption for plode/btide, ammy for tclap imm if you lack quixart augs.. Sandals aren't that good in areas that don't require breach boots; horrified silence is not used by classes that don't use shields, Gaze only for spellslot hungry non-sorcs with amni imm needs.. These are all very situational, a lot of ground is left to cover. I think you underestimate the value of the other vestiges buffed in the recent overhaul, as well as the flexibility of gear setups. I'm currently testing the "To Fear The Night" for a nice spread of skills and imp sneak feats when used in conjunction with the asmo belt... but imms are just sad when you compare to alternative like asmo gloves + vestige exo belt/boots, but options are there. Cloak slot freed from Wrap dominance also opens up new vestige options for the melee/missile crews. The brazier though was simply easy to use and it doesn't feel from player pov like there was anything wrong with it. It's one of those rare cases where it is a shame it was fixed because it wasn't hurting anybody, only reducing the hassle - I have long ago stopped searching because the extra rewards aren't worth the hassle to me (nothing to do with brazier, but it is now an increased hassle). I understand why the change was made and it makes sense, so not complaining about it. In hindsight after a conversation with Bale it is an odd vestige as it would make more sense as a fine print-like existence, but eh. It is what it is. I also don't understand why it would not be worth it for casters unless you use Gaze, which isn't universally useful for casters imo => plenty of caster/casteresque guys able to use. It is a bit overstating from Doomie to say casters can't use it now, Sorcs and Pariahs are happy to use this, so are many castertanks and Limbo chars who may (should!) prefer vestige shield, ammy, boots instead, imo.
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Post by woqued on Dec 10, 2020 11:17:24 GMT
Honestly don't see much of an issue besides a -slight- QoL step back. Even then it was never intended to be used in the way it was previously used. How was it actually intended to be used? Let’s be real, the stats on it are so poor that I suspect no player in HG history has ever seriously used this as a long-term equip (and rightly so) - it was only ever going to be used as a swap item, and that hasn’t changed apart from making it slightly more tedious. Is it a big deal? No, but it’s simply unnecessary and nothing more than a QoL downgrade as you already mentioned. While on topic, perhaps Portable Hole and Rune of Return should be 1 use/day, and Waterbreathing items should also need a fresh rest to be activated. Stop, STOP! STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP
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Post by kingcamaro on Dec 10, 2020 11:28:41 GMT
you now have a vestige that isn't going to be selected by every class. If something is being used by everyone, it probably needs a nerf. This wasn't even a nerf, this was fixing an item.
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Post by chirality on Dec 10, 2020 14:34:22 GMT
As Paradoom said, you now have a vestige that isn't going to be selected by every class. Is that not counter productive? What part of that is whining? Idk, probably the part where this argument conveniently ignores the existence of other vestiges clearly not designed or intended to be selected by every class...? You can't expect this position to hold any water, when the concept of "every vestige is meant to be a valid selection for every class" is spun from whole cloth, merely a fiction manufactured on the spot, to fit the narrative of why this obnoxious nerf should be reverted. Call it like it is -- the change, regardless of intention, is a pita. What's wrong with whining and owning it? Don't waste time in an attempt to rationalize it from a balance standing, when it's extremely obvious that (like many other items in the game), not every vestige is meant to be attractive (or even usable) by all classes. That doesn't make any sense at all; it's almost obtuse to imply. Clearly, vestiges are crafted to have a tailored application for given classes/builds--while it's plain that an attempt was made to make them as flexible and widely-scoped as possible, it's equally plain that most (if not all) vestiges were built with a target class in mind, and don't cater to most, let alone all, classes. Here's a quick thought experiment to check how much sense this argument makes: pretend that the torch is changed from being a vestige to some other item--let's say, a p3 setdrop. Would you still whine about the nerfed functionality? Yes, of course you would--except now, you wouldn't have any ground for claiming that it's a problem because it prevents a vestige from being universally attractive. So, after conducting a simple logic test, it appears that this is really just complaining about a tedious QoL issue (as already/repeatedly stated), with the involvement of vestige design balance having zero relevance. I doubt the intention of the change was to cause some classes to no longer select one of the vestiges. Right...yet here we are, bickering over the impact of the change on casters, while the obvious intention of the change (operating as designed/described) is avoided directly addressing. I doubt the intention of the change was to cause anything other than exactly what it claimed to do, which wasn't "make your life harder" either. If anything, considering that the basis of "locate object" is a spell, a better question might be "why don't casters have an innate way to achieve this result simply by casting a spell, without linking it to a potion or vestige?" Clearly, if there is a big issue with the fact that non-casters can use this torch as a hassle-free locate object, yet post-nerf, casters can't, then this should be addressed. Then again, it seems fairly edge-case, with only a very limited set of builds (rogsplash loot casters) truly being hurt by the updated torch, and everyone else inconvenienced. The inconvenience itself, of course, wasn't refuted by anyone so far, so let's not act like anyone claimed otherwise, especially not with the intent to troll. Rather than saying the change (regarded as a "fix" for something "not functioning as intended") should be reverted and the description changed to match post facto, why not suggest some improvement or propose an amelioration? For example, maybe the torch's special power could spawn a stack of undroppable Locate Object pots. Maybe the item itself would better serve as something other than a vestige--as mentioned above, it's essentially worthless as a wearable item, and is equipped only to use as a locate object remote control; it's by no means viable as an actual piece of gear (although again, trying to reverse-engineer this sad fact as an argument for why it should remain as an unwearable locate object spam makes little sense anyway--why would you want a vestige option to remain as a worthless locate object radar gun instead of something worth equipping and actually wearing?). Thus, I'd argue that the best way forward would be to either a) dramatically improve the props of the torch itself to merit wearing it full-time; b) shift the functionality to some other item, and thereby free up this vestige slot/choice for something else that's actually worth using (like other vestiges--shocking concept, right?) For instance, this could be the perfect opportunity to insert another torch in its place; something along the lines of a sick-randomized BUR/very solid XR torch; this way, classes such as monk could have a new torch choice as a solid and viable equipment option that bridges that gap between "nice XR" and "OP bur" for when the other setloot torches don't match the class/build.
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 10, 2020 14:54:04 GMT
The point is: it may have been not implemented as intended, but it was good as it was. It should just have stayed that way. That fix just caused player sided grieve.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 10, 2020 17:31:30 GMT
Really? That's where this thread has gone? I brought up an issue because a change was made that affected some classes of toons in a negative way. As Paradoom said, you now have a vestige that isn't going to be selected by every class. Should have lead with that. I don't know, is it? You're the one making the claim. Where's the support for that claim? Actually, I think ray said it seemed a bit whiny. The less polite thing I perceived it as was rent-seeking, which is a massive waste of dev time. More on that in a sec. Bit passive aggressive. But nope, our intention was not to cause some classes to no longer use it. It was to restore intended function. But yeah, we do want to know if there's an actual problem. It certainly wasn't raised in your OP. We also want to understand how that edit effects game balance. Without that, there isn't much substance to your post. Without reasons to make a proposed change, it basically reads as a complaint. Or, as ray put it, a bit whiny. Definitely irritating, from my perspective. Setting aside the ad populum fallacy, you should also probably realize that I have learned to heavily discount the opinions of some players, because rent-seeking. If it appears that you are focused on a suggested edit for personal reasons rather than overall game balance, you need to work extra-hard to lay out the game balance reasons. Reasons which, even after all of this, are still in pretty scarce in this thread. So far I have heard that it renders a vestige useless, and have heard 'QoL' thrown around. You should also be aware that calling something 'QoL' when it has game balance implications is incorrect. Does the subject edit? Unclear, from what's in this thread. It's basically all heat, no light. Beginning to see why I dismissed your post? If you want to post as suggested above, by all means. Otherwise, more dev time for more productive things, an less irritation for me. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 10, 2020 18:14:27 GMT
The brazier though was simply easy to use and it doesn't feel from player pov like there was anything wrong with it. It's one of those rare cases where it is a shame it was fixed because it wasn't hurting anybody, only reducing the hassle - I have long ago stopped searching because the extra rewards aren't worth the hassle to me (nothing to do with brazier, but it is now an increased hassle). I understand why the change was made and it makes sense, so not complaining about it. In hindsight after a conversation with Bale it is an odd vestige as it would make more sense as a fine print-like existence, but eh. It is what it is. So, will it cause the vestige to not be used? And if so, what's the best fix? Simply restoring it? Seems a bit one dimensional. Also, are you certain the effects are QoL only? Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 10, 2020 18:24:01 GMT
I doubt the intention of the change was to cause anything other than exactly what it claimed to do, which wasn't "make your life harder" either. Great post overall, but this is so on the spot it's worth quoting. As devs, respect for your playtime is one of our principles. We don't make edits maliciously, or capriciously. We make them because they are in line with our long-term vision of the server, which includes a carefully balanced play experience. We're also happy to deal with it when we make mistakes. Just convince us, without complaining, that the server is better off. I may have too quick to dismiss the OP, in part because it was clearly not particularly well thought out, and not much time had been spent on it. But also because it came after a good week of winging about other edits that were mostly pretty clearly founded in self-interest and not game balance (from other posters). Posts like that really accomplish little other than to irritate me and waste my time - some of which would otherwise be used making productive edits. Funky
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Post by woqued on Dec 10, 2020 18:53:25 GMT
The brazier though was simply easy to use and it doesn't feel from player pov like there was anything wrong with it. It's one of those rare cases where it is a shame it was fixed because it wasn't hurting anybody, only reducing the hassle - I have long ago stopped searching because the extra rewards aren't worth the hassle to me (nothing to do with brazier, but it is now an increased hassle). I understand why the change was made and it makes sense, so not complaining about it. In hindsight after a conversation with Bale it is an odd vestige as it would make more sense as a fine print-like existence, but eh. It is what it is. So, will it cause the vestige to not be used? And if so, what's the best fix? Simply restoring it? Seems a bit one dimensional. Also, are you certain the effects are QoL only? Funky If you must rest with it on, you will lose spellslots from another vestige or offhand item you may be wearing instead of being able to do it at end of map and then !sb filling or otherwise manually replacing spells in book and resting before continuing on. This means it is not "only" QoL, also means you can't use any other potential vestiges with a "you must rest with this on" - you need to choose. It is a major annoyance to any Gaze in the Abyss, caster slot shield, caster slot torch users and somewhat restrictive as they need to choose either or, and can never use the torch if they also needed the slots. Is it only QoL? No. Is it restrictive? Yes, casters who get stripped of slots can not use it, nor other vestige users who need to rest with their item to use it. Is it more annoying to use now? Yes. Is this a bad thing? Up for debate, I reckon most players find it a big fat negative. Was it ever too good? No, but rogues may argue otherwise with their secret amulet niche being spread to the populace - but that, too, is a good thing most would argue. Running around a finished map like a bunny with a berry up it's ass hasn't been a good way to use time for years now when you know the potential locations anyway, just need to save time finding the right ones. For those who don't have such effects or spellslot issue, this is a QoL annoyance of remembering to do the said switcheroo. If there was a way to abuse the torch in some way, I never learned about it. Another way to fix the issue? I don't know beyond implementing that feature in something else and reworking the torch. Technically that wouldn't be a terrible idea as the torch is only used for this purpose afaik, and this purpose would be better served by an item you don't need to equip to use. If someone has been sneakily using the I-Purge CL55 with success, I haven't heard about it. Regardless, reworking this is probably not a super hot burning issue because it still -can- be used, it is just more cumbersome and if you forget you may be unable to (if you don't have rests) or just need to go up and rest again just for this purpose (needless time consumption, to be frank). If it was up to me, I'd rework the torch into something else, remove that effect from it entirely and move it elsewhere as a token similar to a Rune of Return or Epic token. This would give this vestige a new avenue for potential to be used beyond being a swapper for secrets. Hopefully I answered your questions in a useful way.
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