|
Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 12:42:00 GMT
Your calculation seems to have some issues. Are you counting paragon skill points? These do not add to the skill ranks, they are used to soak up layer penalties. Ha! Yes, I am off on OL by 2; should have said 151 (152 if I can get +16 dex equipment) but I think I have the others right. I am only seeing the character in test, so it is missing equipment, demi levels, skill artifacts, etc. However, naked and as a triple humanoid focused Kenku the toon has a base dex of 63 and an int of 18. When I look at the skills, I have: OL: 89 -- 63 ranks + 26 from dex DT: 69 -- 63 ranks + 4 from int + 2 from set trap synchronicity (5 ranks ST) Search: 69 -- 63 ranks + 4 from int . . . dunno where the other 2 are coming from So, the rest I have to assume: - +50 from equipment, - +2 from having demi x 2 (ie +4 dex and int results in +2 skills) - +7/8 from +14/16 equipment (ie. +14/16 dex and int results in +7/8 skills . . . I have never actually seen a +16 ability item in the real game :_( ) - +3 from skill focus items (ie. I have a skill focus search item in the real game, and have been told that there are SF OL and SF DT items)) So the total additional is: +62/63 So: OL: 89 + 62/63 = 151/152 DT: 69 + 62/63 = 131/132 Meanwhile, my concentration, creaft armor, discipline, hide, listen and parry are in the crapper! :-D (3, 4, 0, 8, 27 and 6 when unshifted but shifting should boost the physical ones and I have random plusses from equipment) Unshifted, Animal Empathy is 62 (I should stick a point in, post paragon, to offset my -1 from a CHA of 8) while tumble has 61 (I added 60 ranks and get 1 from 12 dex) So I should be able to save 27/36 skill points to spend, right? Set Traps synchronicty only applies to 5 ranks you spend during level up, right? Not from equipment or dexterity bonus, right?
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Jul 26, 2022 12:58:43 GMT
Well, that explains it, then. I didn't realize you thought you could get over 127 without lockpicks. You can surely do a rogue splash "loot shifter" build. However, the penalty to shifting powerz that a splash level brings is not really the main issue with such a build. In fact, 1-splash shifter builds (ranger, monk) are very common and popular. These builds (can be considered to) sacrifice very little for (what can be considered) a rather significant boost. There are some problems with the build concept, even ignoring the fact that choosing to use a splash level for rogue over monk or ranger is quite suboptimal. That alone isn't the end of the world, and if lockpicks were usable, would probably be fine for a fun project/special niche build. However, the issue about lockpicks makes the basic idea behind the build a non-starter. Even if the situation was somehow changed to "allow" kobolds to use lockpicks (as I believe we discussed in a past thread or 2 of yours ) you'd still be left with: a) requiring significant Int investment to max out search, dt, and ol without compromising the other "basic shifter skills" b) requiring good randomized gear to ensure skills are maxed to 127 cap when needed without the presence of partybuffs, due to lacking powerful rogue-CC gear c) requiring partybuffs again to make up for layer penalties, even after assuming PL skillpoints allotted to buffering against pens These last two are not deal-breakers for "standard" lootsplash builds, because these builds generally aren't conceived to operate solo, and so the availability of bardsong, prayer, and GR are not just a hope, but usually assumed and relied on (at least for deeper runs where even real rogues often rely on them under heavy pens). As well, for the most classic looter splash concept--the wizard or PM--innately high Int as a consequence of being an Int-based spellcaster means that not only are skillpoints very high, but search and dt benefit from a much higher ability modifier than on other rogue-duty classes (who generally only take the absolute minimum Int required to max relevant skills and achieve bare minimum search/dt to factor in with build+gear parameters). *On this note, see below Just to hammer this in for the final time: you can't use lockpicks while shifted, and you can't open locks with DC higher than 147 without lockpicks, restricting you to relatively (again, in context of LL+ content) low-DC chests while using kobold form. Back to your theoretical build: maxing search, dt, and ol are issues for a shifter in ways that casters or dexers don't need to worry about, and combined with the lockpick issue, you are really stretching a weird shape to fit a hole that almost any other class in the game can slide into with much less effort--simply because they don't rely on shifted form to boost rogue skills/ability modifiers, and they can use lockpicks. Thus, again, even if lockpicks were usable as a kobold (or mind flayer ) you'd still be making a build that is at best just a clunkier and worse version of something that every core caster and any dex tank can do while still being effective in their role.
*There are two general types of lootsplash builds that can buff themselves and are designed to function even solo or when lacking other core casters: cleric, and theurge. This is because clerics are able to GR themselves (and prayer, which can be a crucial skill boost when lacking bardsong and/or amazing gear), so accessing these buffs without relying on others makes a huge difference. Again, for wizard/pm, the lack of selfbuffs isn't a huge issue anyway, and the benefit of high Int pays dividends in skillpoints and ability modifier for search and dt. As for the theurge, it is more suited to a "solo LL farmer/explorer" role, and also is more convenient as a build to invest high Int. This is because as an arcane caster, you can play like a mage, and unlike a cleric, your return on high Int investment is already required to access wizard spells anyway. This kind of build is not very popular and even less so nowadays, whereas the loot cleric on the other hand has gained popularity. This is largely due to omnipresence of bot armies, and leveraging a theurge in a tiny party is not basically no longer a thing (and rarely ever was anyway), whereas a cleric rogue is extremely useful. I think you would really enjoy the latter, because it kind of accomplishes what you are hoping to pull off with your secretmaster soloshifter: it can (with a bit of cheese, but hey, that's what casters do, just like shifters ) solo a significant chunk of the mod, it is self-reliant and with just "above-average" but not necessarily "godly rare" gear it can access most secrets in the game. You seem like fiddling with spellbooks and taking extra time to carefully figure out how to solo areas is something you enjoy, so I really would recommend giving a rogue-splashed looter wizard or theurge a chance.
|
|
|
Post by boroie on Jul 26, 2022 13:20:26 GMT
So, the rest I have to assume: - +50 from equipment, - +2 from having demi x 2 (ie +4 dex and int results in +2 skills) - +7/8 from +14/16 equipment (ie. +14/16 dex and int results in +7/8 skills . . . I have never actually seen a +16 ability item in the real game :_( ) - +3 from skill focus items (ie. I have a skill focus search item in the real game, and have been told that there are SF OL and SF DT items)) So the total additional is: +62/63 So: OL: 89 + 62/63 = 151/152 DT: 69 + 62/63 = 131/132 Since maybe it was not obvious in my previous post (please do re-read it), it caps at 127 regardless of how large your stat bonus is. Calculate in this order: skill ranks (max 63), skill bonus (+50 cap), skill focus (+3), stat mod. Whenever/however you hit 127 it stops adding up. There is no possibility to exceed 127 (147 with take 20) unless you use a lockpick on open lock. You cannot use an item like lockpicks while shifted.
|
|
|
Post by boroie on Jul 26, 2022 13:34:39 GMT
*There are two general types of lootsplash builds that can buff themselves and are designed to function even solo or when lacking other core casters: cleric, and theurge. This is because clerics are able to GR themselves (and prayer, which can be a crucial skill boost when lacking bardsong and/or amazing gear), so accessing these buffs without relying on others makes a huge difference. Again, for wizard/pm, the lack of selfbuffs isn't a huge issue anyway, and the benefit of high Int pays dividends in skillpoints and ability modifier for search and dt. A rogue splash theurge is fantastic and can easily perform all cleric duties in the mod with appropriate spell focus selection. 22 base int is sufficient. Drow noble is amazing for this as it has able learner and active search. Thievery domain gives a huge skill boost once per rest if required. My rogue splash theurge (well... I have about 5 of them actually ) has completed every acc in the mod and been an active contributor along the way. A zen ranger with a rogue splash also works extremely well, though typically requires greater restoration. You should only see 1 max DC drop on CS I think when you have 78 wisdom, though it may require double demi (for int) to forego taking skill focus feats. I've run one of these through all the mod except limbo P2. With sufficient intelligence investment you can also create a rogue splash shifter with all the skills required - it uses elf based race, works best with melee shifter (though caster shifter is possible too) and can be combined with stormlord variant (you want the dex anyway) to make something fun. Kratlin has one that has all the relevant druid epics and uses the saves artifact to give skills boost and self-GR. The skill point investment with able learner is very large though (103 points per rogue skill). Again with sufficient int/skill investment, a rogue splash bard is also a viable build. Lots of options, and as mentioned above there are lots of ways to fit searching/picking into contributing builds - its just harder with caster shifter than most other options.
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 15:46:26 GMT
Since maybe it was not obvious in my previous post (please do re-read it), it caps at 127 regardless of how large your stat bonus is. Calculate in this order: skill ranks (max 63), skill bonus (+50 cap), skill focus (+3), stat mod. Whenever/however you hit 127 it stops adding up. There is no possibility to exceed 127 (147 with take 20) unless you use a lockpick on open lock. You cannot use an item like lockpicks while shifted. Ah, now I see the misunderstanding I was having with you and chiralty. Sorry for having missed that. So: 63 ranks + 50 from skill equipment + 3 from skill focus equipment = 116 That means that, regardless of my abilities (int and dex), they will only ever give me, at most, an additional 11 ranks. And, yes, you did say it clearly with "The engine cap is 127 regardless of how much dex you exceed the base requirement by - if you have sufficient base ranks, magic bonus and stat bonus to hit 127 then that is it." I had missed that sentence while reading on my phone! :-D So, good news is that I can save skill points. Also, I can reach max search and disable traps -- +14/16 ability equipment gives +7/8 skills; double demi gives +4 ability which is +2 skills; my naked, unshifted Int is 18 for another +4 skills. 116 + 7|8 + 2 + 4 == 129|130. I can remove 2 ranks in both search and DT from my build (which gives 12 back into my skill point pool) Plus, I do not need to bother with 5 points in set traps, taken during the rogue splash, so that gives me a total of 17 skill points back in the pool. Bad news is locks. My naked dex is a lowly 12 for +1 skill. 116 + 7|8 + 2 + 1 == 126|127. I could only reach the max OL, while unshifted, if I have +16 equipment, which I probably cannot use when shackled below 55. Still, that should get me all legendary chests. Are there any of these dreaded 170 DC locks in legendary levels? Let me know if I am missing something in my math (Yes, I know I am not taking layer penalties into account) (And thanks, both of you, for working through all this with me! :-D )
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jul 26, 2022 16:01:22 GMT
You can only use +14 at 60 and +16 at whatever the specific item minimum level requirement is generally 65 to 70 or as high as 80 for things like Gaze into the Abyss.
|
|
|
Post by boroie on Jul 26, 2022 16:13:50 GMT
Bad news is locks. My naked dex is a lowly 12 for +1 skill. 116 + 7|8 + 2 + 1 == 126|127. I could only reach the max OL, while unshifted, if I have +16 equipment, which I probably cannot use when shackled below 55. Still, that should get me all legendary chests. Are there any of these dreaded 170 DC locks in legendary levels? Not in the slightest. There are many LL chests with DC 165 (+18s) or higher. I've seen LL chests (eg in Rona, Uro) with the full 170 DC requiring +24 picks. It is random though what DC they appear to be set at whereas the ones in Hells are all set at a specific DC. A lockpick is always required once the DC gets to 148 or higher and the vast majority of LL chests would fall into that bracket IMO.
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 16:54:01 GMT
Goodness! I just noticed that I only levelled my test toon to 79, and I never used the paragon skill pool.
So I have 75 skill points to distribute (60 + 15 that I will recoup from Set Trap, Disable Trap and Search)
How would you guys rank:
concentration - presently 0 - costs one point craft armor - presently 0 - costs one point discipline - presently 0 - costs two points hide - presently 7 - costs one point listen - presently 0 - costs one point parry - presently 0 - costs one point during rogue splash up to . . . 23? . . . then 2 points
(Animal empathy is 63, pick pocket is 1 and tumble is 60) (I am ignoring Use Magic Device and Lore)
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 16:57:13 GMT
You can only use +14 at 60 and +16 at whatever the specific item minimum level requirement is generally 65 to 70 or as high as 80 for things like Gaze into the Abyss. Ugh, so I am stuck with +12. That is another 6 skill points from the pool (to get DT and search to 127)
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jul 26, 2022 17:14:50 GMT
You can only use +14 at 60 and +16 at whatever the specific item minimum level requirement is generally 65 to 70 or as high as 80 for things like Gaze into the Abyss. Ugh, so I am stuck with +12. That is another 6 skill points from the pool (to get DT and search to 127) Actually potentially up to 10 points less - +14 2 +16 2 Demi x2 4 and level 80 (or whatever you get your second point of Int at) 2
|
|
|
Post by boroie on Jul 26, 2022 18:01:54 GMT
Goodness! I just noticed that I only levelled my test toon to 79, and I never used the paragon skill pool. So I have 75 skill points to distribute (60 + 15 that I will recoup from Set Trap, Disable Trap and Search) How would you guys rank: concentration - presently 0 - costs one point craft armor - presently 0 - costs one point discipline - presently 0 - costs two points hide - presently 7 - costs one point listen - presently 0 - costs one point parry - presently 0 - costs one point during rogue splash up to . . . 23? . . . then 2 points (Animal empathy is 63, pick pocket is 1 and tumble is 60) (I am ignoring Use Magic Device and Lore) They are nearly all critical skills for your survivability and pretty much all should be maxed. You either need to take more int or just give up.
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 18:31:52 GMT
Goodness! I just noticed that I only levelled my test toon to 79, and I never used the paragon skill pool. So I have 75 skill points to distribute (60 + 15 that I will recoup from Set Trap, Disable Trap and Search) How would you guys rank: concentration - presently 0 - costs one point craft armor - presently 0 - costs one point discipline - presently 0 - costs two points hide - presently 7 - costs one point listen - presently 0 - costs one point parry - presently 0 - costs one point during rogue splash up to . . . 23? . . . then 2 points (Animal empathy is 63, pick pocket is 1 and tumble is 60) (I am ignoring Use Magic Device and Lore) They are nearly all critical skills for your survivability and pretty much all should be maxed. You either need to take more int or just give up. :-D I don't even have them maxed on my present toon; he slays most hells and, in his 60's while pre-demi, he did okay in Abo, limbo pt1 hardmode and an abyss. These stats are only in the 30's and 40's for him . . . craft armor might be maxed. I get concentration, but is listen really that critical? I am always casting spells. Maybe for manticore spikes. Still, listen gets a big bump from wisdom. I am also almost never on the front lines. Even soloing, the mobs rarely get close enough to attack. Parry and Hide should probably take precedence over a couple AC from craft armor. Discipline is important. Figures it is a cross class. That will be the tricky one Okay
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 18:53:43 GMT
Ugh, so I am stuck with +12. That is another 6 skill points from the pool (to get DT and search to 127) Actually potentially up to 10 points less - +14 2 +16 2 Demi x2 4 and level 80 (or whatever you get your second point of Int at) 2 Skill ranks are at 63, skill bonus equipment give +50 and skill focus equipment (if I can find them) will give +3. 63 + 50 + 3 == 116 +12|14|16 ability equipment gives +6|7|8 skills; double demi gives +4 ability which is +2 skills; unshifted Int is 18 at lvl 80 for +4 int skills but dex is 112 for just +1 dex skills (specifically, open lock). int skills: 116 + 6|7|8 + 2 + 4 == 128|129|130 So I should be good with DT and search, right? In fact, search and disable trap have one rank, each, that can be returned to the pool (3 actual points, each, for 6 points total) plus 5 points from set trap, so I have 11 points to refactor and 60 unspent points. dex skill (Open Lock) : 116 + 6|7|8 + 2 + 1 == 125|126|127 So, for 70 plus lvl maps, I should be good on chests once I get a +16 item. I should be able to handle the vast majority of chests on the 60-70 lvl maps, as well as on the sub-60 lvl maps. *sigh* are there any feats to help Open lock, other than skill focus? (a la silver palm helping persuade and appraise?) Maybe HG specific? Hmph. Even if there is, the feat is probably only available at lvl1, and I do not want to give up blooded for LSA tumble . . .
|
|
|
Post by Yojimbo on Jul 27, 2022 14:35:31 GMT
Goodness! I just noticed that I only levelled my test toon to 79, and I never used the paragon skill pool. So I have 75 skill points to distribute (60 + 15 that I will recoup from Set Trap, Disable Trap and Search) How would you guys rank: concentration - presently 0 - costs one point craft armor - presently 0 - costs one point discipline - presently 0 - costs two points hide - presently 7 - costs one point listen - presently 0 - costs one point parry - presently 0 - costs one point during rogue splash up to . . . 23? . . . then 2 points (Animal empathy is 63, pick pocket is 1 and tumble is 60) (I am ignoring Use Magic Device and Lore) Would kind of depend on the character build. Normally of that list Listen is big for melee as is discipline with parry & craft armor behind those. Caster would need maybe 15 concentration but typically don't need a lot in it. Hide is fairly case specific and effects select spells and abilities usually those granting conceal. With this thread being about rogues it is still tough to say but listen and hide come to mind when I am on the subject of rogues.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jul 27, 2022 15:26:15 GMT
There are some unpleasant Concentration and Discipline checks in the mod several of which can have instant death as a fail
|
|