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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 15, 2006 16:57:51 GMT
"Expanded the party level limit to include legendary levels. You now must be level 40 to get experience in a party with legendary characters, and must be within 9 legendary levels of them. The highest level that a level 40 character can party with is 49."
I know I've heard alot of talk about this, and I wanted to talk about why this was done? This has completely changed the entire server around in my eyes. People are having hard time finding groups now that give xp. Some people are like well if you want your tag and you can't get xp, then its tuff luck for you. Immo runs are hard enough to start, unless u sit on the server 24/7, or start your own. But even with that u need the stuff to make it happen. I feel like this might discourage some new people, because of the difficulty they will have finding groups.
I'm not complaining about this, I just want to understand why it has happen?
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Post by fusa on Apr 15, 2006 17:04:23 GMT
It will also discourage people who have been playing here, not everyone has all day to wait for a group in your range to do a sssys, db, illitad, etc run. After wasting a day waiting for a group to be in the range of the characters I have, I seriously doubt I will play anymore. The server has really gotten worse in the past couple of months, this has completely ruined it in my opinion.
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Post by chainlink on Apr 15, 2006 17:19:20 GMT
"People are having hard time finding groups now that give xp. Some people are like well if you want your tag and you can't get xp, then its tuff luck for you." It's worse than that because if you aren't in the range to get XP you won't get tagged either, we found this out with the old system when somebody went out of range (due to somebody else leveling) as we were getting the Xul tag. Effectively what this means is only Lvl 40's will be going on Lolth or Immortal runs as not taking a couple of immortals with you for these quests is near suicidal, say goodbye to lvl 34-39 immortals.
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Post by Xcercs on Apr 15, 2006 17:53:20 GMT
i think this was introduced as a way to get people to stop leeching quests and exp as i have seen happen in a few cases inexperianced and new players they do VERY little to help the team and yet get the xp tags and loot this frustrates the vets alot i think since a new player can make lvl 50 in next to no time and be fully equipped without learning anything of puttin in the offort....
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Post by ryancian on Apr 15, 2006 18:28:34 GMT
Well said xcercs, I only offer a few counter arguements. Once you ding 40, you can party with anyone 49 and under. If you put in even... a minimal amount of time per day, you can achieve the first legendary levels fairly quickly. That one place with leezards yields 600 exp a pop. Same for the desert. You might not be able to do DB yet, but you can certainly level up. Leeching is somewhat of a problem from what I can tell and that would cut down on that. On the other hand, limiting play between veterans and slightly experienced players could cause a huge rift in the server. If you have a group of veterans with levels in the high 50's, and people in the low 40's, you've got two sets of experience there: ones extremely knowledgable about the game, and those not so much. If they can't ever party together, how does that information ever get passed along? If people who don't know anything never get with the people who do, how can they learn otherwise. The potential problem that may come from that is even higher level 'noobs.' As for the not putting in effort, there is the disband party member option for someone who is leeching severely and not contributing in the least. Just my two cents.
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Apr 15, 2006 18:30:53 GMT
The remedy to that is kick them from the group.
I agree with Fusa insofar as this change is bad in my opinion.
While I'm building a pally to play around with, realistically I have ONE character. At level 58. Meaning, I will have a lot harder of a time doing the things I enjoy doing, because instead of 40+ I can only group with 49+.
Since not everyone has that kind of time, there are less people in that area. Plus, as the EXP curve increases DRASTICALLY, when I hit 60, it will take more effort for people to be 51+.
In addition, I often go places to help people - lloth runs, immortal runs, the maze...and I won't be able to help guide around new players since when they hit 40 and become newly immortal...I can't group with them and get to know them.
In a nut shell, I think that change stinks. I don't see how it helps, and I know that it will hurt me. I'm a wizard, I can't run around invincible in melee. I run out of offense and I have to rest - and when I'm without protectives I can be cut down by things that a armor-wearer would laugh at.
How many 50+s have anything to fear from a drow archer? Well, if I'm nekkid and tapped...I'll get killed. So this change, forcing me to play with people 49+...means also that I can't partner as easily to have tank cover while I rest or to keep things off me when I run low.
And for people who have 80 bazillion characters to chose from this may just mean that they have to pick a character they don't really want to play right then in order to get a group.
But for me, my alternative is - create a serious character for each level range, or just do a lot less. And I do not want to make many serious characters. I have neither the time nor the inclination.
And now I can never go on a Lloth or Immortal run EVER AGAIN, and probably won't be able to do MoaD either if people want tags.
I'm limited to the high level, long term runs that REQUIRE a large time committment, one that I cannot often give. Other than that, I can...fight Dachy, but only if no one in the group is below 49...which means that I can't help people navigate the maze or get tags for the first time either.
And since LLs can't be altered, I cannot De-LL myself down to 49 - which is now the optimum level to be, since you can group 40-58, and be able to go on both types of runs.
I do not like this change, and I advise that it be removed in the strongest possible terms.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2006 18:31:19 GMT
Xerces has it mostly right. It's also intended to ensure that earlier areas remain challenging. We will probably be either 1) breaking the hard-line 'level 40 to party with legendaries' rule, if I can find a way to ensure there won't be any complications (there's a tech problem there), or 2) allowing immortals some way to access the abyss, for faster runs for people with less time. I have to admit I'm a bit surprised by the extremeness of the reactions to this, since it's just an extension of the under-40 system with some added leniency via the 9 instead of 6 range. I also have to say I'm pretty disappointed with you Fusa. I just removed the "This means no complaining if and when something changes" from the server entry message this update, because I felt it conveyed the wrong impression, but I'm regretting it. INPUT is welcome, but generalized griping and whining certainly isn't - I'm referring, of course, to the "server has really gotten worse in the past couple of months" remark. I spend about 90% of my NWN time WORKING on the server, so I can do it without it, and your whining about wasted time PLAYING is only going to fall on deaf ears. If, however, you have some CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions about how we might better achieve the purpose of the level break system without resort to it, or questions about why we did it, I'm all ears. You also need to bear in mind that the server is constantly evolving, and I expect that more characters will fall into your partyable ranges once I figure out a way to drop the LL xp reqs some without screwing over those with level 60s earned the hard way - I'm especially eager for suggestions in that regard, though if I can't find a way to do it soon I'm just gonna drop the reqs. Funky
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Post by fusa on Apr 15, 2006 18:36:00 GMT
Thats why those players should be kicked from parties or not invited at all to areas that require a good build and being well equipped. I have seen what Xcercs explain above happen, but always its the dm's bringing people who can not survive in areas they shouldn't be. This has even happened when a party is half way done with the bridge leading to Sssy'is, someone who respawns there really shouldn't be brought back in especially more than once in a single run. Also a desert run will be next to impossible to get a group to last the 6 or more hours required to do the run. Most people do not do this because of the length of time required. Now you have to be lucky enough to find enough people that wants to stay through the run, or hope that someone in the level range will join in time.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2006 18:50:14 GMT
ryan - On the other hand, limiting play between veterans and slightly experienced players could cause a huge rift in the server. If you have a group of veterans with levels in the high 50's, and people in the low 40's, you've got two sets of experience there: ones extremely knowledgable about the game, and those not so much. If they can't ever party together, how does that information ever get passed along? Actually I'd anticipate that the change will have the opposite effect. Right now there is VERY LITTLE mixing of vets and noobs, because the vets are all caught up doing the highest possible areas. The way we used to deal with the limit when it was more of an issue before legendary levels was to maintain different characters in different ranges. That helped increase vet exposure to new players, not decrease it. The way I see it you'll see more and better players coming up the ranks as a result. @ Delf - I think I addressed many of your concerns in the post I just made. Bear in mind that LL spell edits are coming next update, which will help caster defenses substantially, I expect. There are also plans to put in a few new and shorter LL runs, since the LL areas are extremely time consuming, more time than many have in one sitting. Your suggestion that kicking them from the group will rememdy the situation don't fly, simply because that hasn't been happening. I'm not sure what you mean by 'serious' characters, but given the reletively small amount of time it takes to hit level 50, saying you don't have the time when you already have a level 58 - thats around 4.5 level 50s - doesn't make sense. All changes take some getting used to, and usually additional tweaking or changes. If you don't like the limits, I need viable alternatives suggested, and a little faith. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2006 18:59:03 GMT
Thats why those players should be kicked from parties or not invited at all to areas that require a good build and being well equipped. I have seen what Xcercs explain above happen, but always its the dm's bringing people who can not survive in areas they shouldn't be. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. I understand you resent the dm no-refusal policy (except for those who don't meet the reqs), because you can't maintain your blacklist and party with dms (and I suspect that that's what you were referring to in your earlier remarks, but whatever), but thats a totally seperate issue, so let's keep it that way. As I just posted above, saying they should be kicked just doesn't hack it, because it hasn't been happening. I need alternative suggestions. Feel free to get creative. I was toying with the notion of maintaining player kill-to-death ratios and going off that, but that has it's own problems. And also as I remarked, I could use a little faith. We aren't TRYING to ruin the server for you... Funky
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Post by fusa on Apr 15, 2006 21:17:04 GMT
just to clarify by me saying earlier the server has been going down hill its not the work being put into it, just the unavoidable annoying players that are on now. Also many new players are able to obtain what use to take very a very long time to obtian (secret subraces, etc) by people simplying giving out or selling this information or items to new players. I think one thing that could be done as an alterntive is to put a level cap on obtaining tags (Xul by lvl 35, lolth by 37, immortal by 40, sssys by 45 etc) This way a poorly created character would have to at least have good gear to survive.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2006 21:27:14 GMT
Ok, thanks for the clarification. That might help, but it still doesn't solve the problem of LLs cruising through areas like the drow with level 34+s. It completely destroys the challenge, and helps create poor players. Please view this in part as an attempt to combat some of the trends you've been seeing. Funky
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Post by fusa on Apr 15, 2006 21:45:06 GMT
Maybe setting a limit on xul lolth immo tags for immortals in the party? Xul and Lolth can be easily done with 1 non-immortal and one immortal so I see no reason that more than 1 immortal would be needed, The immortal quest could allow maybe another just to speed the time up. The biggest reason that the ll level limits have really disappointed me is that I am now on late, in the day or early, by then most people are finishing their quests, so this limits the amount of people that are on to go on a run. I can see this being even worse for people in other time zones. Or just have ll level caps for xul, lolth and immortal. If someone in the party is level 49+ then no one gets the tag for immortal, etc.
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Post by stevereno on Apr 15, 2006 21:49:17 GMT
I dont post very often and like this server very much. Overall I think the DMs here are great and Funky I think you do a super job and am very greatful for all the work you do here so players like me can come and blow off steam killing things in your world. That said, I am very opposed to the new LL group limits. Yesterday I spent all day off and on trying to get a goup together and couldnt get one till very late in the day. I dont have that much time to play anymore and will slowly lose interest if groups get harder and harder to find in the high 50 range. I also enjoy helping out the lolith runs etc with one of my main 3 builds and really have no interest in starting a new build as getting my main 3 to 60 is still a ways off. Ok, now to alternatives. First of, I liked the old way. It seemed to work fine except for a few leechers who in reality will make new builds as they found the ones they were using to leech were not very good so they will take the knowlegde they learned while leeching on the db run etc and teach others about the server. In the long run thats how our species learns and we have a lot of youngsters playing this game and they play it like youngsters until taught. People who leech and loot steal in the long run dont get invited back into parties anyway so it really isnt a problem in my opinion. So I would vote for going back to the old way. I can give other suggestions such as 39 and up being able to group together as once your into that range you usually have a pretty strong grasp of the game and again if you dont well you wont be invited into the group or back into it. I have no problem with DMs inviting anyone they want into a group and actually think the fairness in that action on there part is to be commended. That doesnt mean leechers and loot stealers will run rampant on the server, it means they will be taught the correct ways (I have been in many groups where Jadon and Funky have both showed great patience in teaching the younsters. Hech they even made Avatar a DM. Oops sorry Av.) and if they dont get it they will find it harder and harder to find a group as has always been the case whether a dm is in the group or not. I just want to be able to jump on and if all I have is an hour to be able to get into a group and help out where I can and have fun. This is still a game to me and agian I think you do a great job Funky and I dont mean to complain, but if I dont post here with my comments I will wind up just leaving for other ventures and fun elsewhere and thats not fair to all the great people I have come across in the world enhanced by the master world builder Funky.
Spark
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Post by Grogbot on Apr 15, 2006 22:25:58 GMT
That might help, but it still doesn't solve the problem of LLs cruising through areas like the drow with level 34+s Funky Hey hey! Just a suggestion: instead of restricting XP, why not stop super high level chars from even entering such areas? I saw this on the old AW "Epic PoA" when it was around (circa 2004) - if you went to, say, Kobold Hill/Glade with a L12, it rezoned you back outside to Road to Town and wrote a warning message to the log. So level-restict Drow to say 45 or something ... and similarly for other areas If you could put a time limit on, that would be even better (like the GS timer): after being in Mana etc for 5 mins it zones you back to another area ... this would allow transfer of gear/items etc - needs some tweaking to allow for passage thru the areas For my 2c (thats 0.02 AUD so around 0.015 USD), I'd like to see the new restiction lifted, since I'm in the "hard to find a party" camp - but then again I'm also in the "hoardes of diffrent [mortal] chars at different levels" cohort as well Anyway, just a suggestion. Grog
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