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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Apr 18, 2006 14:28:57 GMT
I don't envy you the task of going back and adding to each item what the level limit is, since it won't shoy up anymore with an ILR script.
But anywho...aren't you worried that items will become too powerful? I mean, once you go over 40 its possible to put together an immunity suit the likes of god-mode. And one runs out of things to stick on without becoming duplicitive. Thats just my experience though...I'm sure its occurred to you.
I'm mainly writing today on the topic of leeching. I think you're going to have a hard time fixing leeching with a script, because the problem isn't systemic, its in the people. You will have leeches when you have people who want to leech, and people who will put up with it and enable it. Adding a script may make it a little harder, but it still won't fix the problem. It just means that leeches will stick to groups in their level range and be useless. They're still benefitting as long as the group allows them to be a leech, and no scripting will eliminate that problem. Because it isn't a game problem, its a person-problem.
So if your goal is eliminating leeching, which also creates foolish/careless players...well, scripting a level limit certainly won't solve it. Question is, else gets the axe in the attempt?
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 18, 2006 16:48:46 GMT
@zero - You quoted my post, but did you READ it? I'm talking about DMs handing out items and docking xp for a one week period when the change hits. Not a store, and certainly nothing long-term. And I really can't imagine what 'loot issues' you think such items might solve. Funky I was just throwing out idea's for 60+ gear. Maybe loot issues is to strong. What I meant was that it would make people want to group for xp more; other then just for loot that drops. The loot system right now is based around luck. If you get a roll then you get the loot. I don't see the problem with a store vendor that takes XP instead of GOLD. It just sounds like alot of work. But for a temp solution I have no clue. I was looking for more extending the game after 60+
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 18, 2006 20:45:00 GMT
I'm mainly writing today on the topic of leeching. I think you're going to have a hard time fixing leeching with a script, because the problem isn't systemic, its in the people. You will have leeches when you have people who want to leech, and people who will put up with it and enable it. Adding a script may make it a little harder, but it still won't fix the problem. It just means that leeches will stick to groups in their level range and be useless. They're still benefitting as long as the group allows them to be a leech, and no scripting will eliminate that problem. Because it isn't a game problem, its a person-problem. So if your goal is eliminating leeching, which also creates foolish/careless players...well, scripting a level limit certainly won't solve it. Question is, else gets the axe in the attempt? I think your going overboard on this. If someone is leeching XP it clearly shows, and if the group your in decides he's leeching, then just kick him out. Whats the big deal with that? They might start a /shout "WHY YOU KICK MEZ OUT?!?" type of shouting match. But I feel there are enough DM's to handle this, at times I see no DM's on and some stuff go unsaid, but whatever its a freaken game. I love this game as much as anyone, but if your in a group and the group has the problem with the leeching, then thats where it should be solved. Truthfully I don't care if people leech because sometimes I suck and can't get my game right. Or maybe sometimes I'll go afk for a couple minutes and soak some XP while I go make a sandwich. But I also feel like I do a extremely good job with helping groups too, anyone can argue that if they wish. So in truth, I kinda don't understand why all this talk about leeching when its a people's issue. In most mmorpg's if you leech with enough people eventually your tell's and shouts go unawnsered.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 18, 2006 21:26:05 GMT
@delf - Calling it a 'people' problem that is by virtue of that fact unsolvable by script is just silly. Everything characters do in game is driven by people. Altering their behavior is as simple as incentivizing/punishing or allowing/disallowing. Societies do it every day via laws. We could do it the same way, by setting up a system of rules for leveling and then policing those rules, but scripts are better, because they do the policing themselves. The only trick is making them complex enough to do the jobright, but we haven't run into that yet since no one has suggested a solution that would be difficult to script.
@zero - I explained a few pages back why parties doing the policing won't cut it - simply put, they aren't now. Funky
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 18, 2006 23:29:06 GMT
@delf - Calling it a 'people' problem that is by virtue of that fact unsolvable by script is just silly. Everything characters do in game is driven by people. Altering their behavior is as simple as incentivizing/punishing or allowing/disallowing. Societies do it every day via laws. We could do it the same way, by setting up a system of rules for leveling and then policing those rules, but scripts are better, because they do the policing themselves. The only trick is making them complex enough to do the jobright, but we haven't run into that yet since no one has suggested a solution that would be difficult to script. @zero - I explained a few pages back why parties doing the policing won't cut it - simply put, they aren't now. Funky I don't see how you can script some type of complex system that would control people's behaivor, or how they build there characters? I just see way to many problems arising out of it.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 19, 2006 2:51:25 GMT
I don't see how you can script some type of complex system that would control people's behaivor, or how they build there characters? I just see way to many problems arising out of it. Like I said, nothing mentioned even approaches complexity yet. What you fail to realize is that decisions and changes made each update do just that - they alter player decisionmaking. The DM Team regularly weighs serious decisions to vet exactly HOW they will impact the server - in other words, how they will affect incentives for certain behavioirs. It isn't rocket science or hocus-pocus, its simple stimulus-response. And so far, only one major problem, difficulty finding groups, has arisen. A serious problem, but hardly a multiplicity. It's nice to see that players care enough about the server to speak up in such numbers, but most of the reactions I've seen so far have been of the knee-jerk rather than the carefully-thought-out variety. Funky
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 19, 2006 3:28:21 GMT
"What you fail to realize is that decisions and changes made each update do just that - they alter player decisionmaking. The DM Team regularly weighs serious decisions to vet exactly HOW they will impact the server - in other words, how they will affect incentives for certain behavioirs."
I didn't fail to realize anything, I'm the one that started the thread due to the change. Which was unannounced from what I know, so most people logged on to have a bad night. I love this server to death and I thought the community so far rocks. But as you said funky your the only one doing the changes?
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Post by Xcercs on Apr 19, 2006 8:09:05 GMT
eeeeep feels like the thred maybe swaying off topic a little ... as a veteran of forums i have always found that if you voice your opinion once in clear context and iron out any possible grey areas they are the posts that people look to again and again make 30 posts of a 47 post topic just indicates to me that you either are really upset with this change or you just havent realised to answer or explanation that has been given ...
In my first post i gave what i thought were possible reasons and theories for as to why this LL party limit was introduced, short after Funky said i was along the right track ... since then i have seen many many posts going into more detail about all this, and some rambling about how unhappy people are about the change and its affects.
Its good to discuss and talk over ideas and such but getting into a flame war just seems silly, my suggestion would be to play with the new LL party limit for a week or so, as the introduction text when you join the server says we are all considered beta test players so rather than complaine about a test why not play it find its weakness/strength and report back to DM team that way they can make the appropriate adjustments.
Ill leave you with the thought of one simple fact... the DM title is given to people with the goal of making the gaming world more exciting enjoyable and fun for the players, do you honestly think that the team would add something just to upset alll of its player base ?
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 19, 2006 8:20:10 GMT
eeeeep feels like the thred maybe swaying off topic a little ... as a veteran of forums i have always found that if you voice your opinion once in clear context and iron out any possible grey areas they are the posts that people look to again and again make 30 posts of a 47 post topic just indicates to me that you either are really upset with this change or you just havent realised to answer or explanation that has been given ... In my first post i gave what i thought were possible reasons and theories for as to why this LL party limit was introduced, short after Funky said i was along the right track ... since then i have seen many many posts going into more detail about all this, and some rambling about how unhappy people are about the change and its affects. Its good to discuss and talk over ideas and such but getting into a flame war just seems silly, my suggestion would be to play with the new LL party limit for a week or so, as the introduction text when you join the server says we are all considered beta test players so rather than complaine about a test why not play it find its weakness/strength and report back to DM team that way they can make the appropriate adjustments. Ill leave you with the thought of one simple fact... the DM title is given to people with the goal of making the gaming world more exciting enjoyable and fun for the players, do you honestly think that the team would add something just to upset alll of its player base ? There is no flame war here? If you read everything before this you would clearly see we are coming to a resolve on some issues. And who honestly knows what anyone was thinking when the change occured because like I said, I don't think there ever was a vote or announcement for such a drastic change. Thats why, once again, I started this post, to see if we could find a middle road for everyone. I talked to alot of people before I even decided to post, because I still consider myself new compared to some of the vets that help and teach me things.
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Post by mishimayukio on Apr 19, 2006 10:02:25 GMT
IF all members of the party are in the SAME guild why not turn off the LL party limit . since most guild members are active and helpful also guilds are there to help people and friends this seems somewhat logical as long as all members are of same guild. I REALLY like this idea, as it would solve most of my issues with any type of LL party level limit system. It would also provide a real reason to get invited to/join a guild other than the remote possibility of a guild war in the future. I also can't see players who can't pull their own weight in a fight getting invited to a guild. I'm also partial to hiryuu's linear LL level requirement progression, both the 10M and the 12M versions. While it is possible for me to get 1 character to 60 with a lot of grinding under the current system, I would like to see more of my characters have the same chance the reach their full potential without having to expend as much effort as I have on Yue (still 1.4M from 60, after how many months?) Please post your thoughts on the guild thing, I seem to be the only one who has noticed it so far.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 19, 2006 14:40:26 GMT
@zero I didn't fail to realize anything, I'm the one that started the thread due to the change. Which was unannounced from what I know, so most people logged on to have a bad night. No need to get defensive. I was simply referring to your statment expressing a lack of understanding about how we can script to alter behavior. You must've failed to realize something or you wouldn't have had any trouble understanding how we accomplish behaviour changes. As for the change being unannounced, that was unintentional - I forgot to put up the new update on the bullitin board, which was unfortunate timing given the unpopularity of one of the changes. You can see the all the changes made that update on the board now, as with all other updates. mish IF all members of the party are in the SAME guild why not turn off the LL party limit . since most guild members are active and helpful also guilds are there to help people and friends this seems somewhat logical as long as all members are of same guild. I REALLY like this idea, as it would solve most of my issues with any type of LL party level limit system. It would also provide a real reason to get invited to/join a guild other than the remote possibility of a guild war in the future. I also can't see players who can't pull their own weight in a fight getting invited to a guild. I just saw too many problems with it. One problem is, it doesn't address a lot of undesired behaviour like 60s powerleveling 40s in the drow. As for people entering guilds who can't pull their weight in a fight, that may well be true for your guild, but isn't for others. Several guilds I've seen have appeared to have been cobbled together by one person with anyone they can lay hands on simply to meet the 4 player req. The idea isn't altogether unattractive, but at the most I could see maybe expanding the range limit by a few for an all-guild party. And unless you have a massive guild, I don't see how this (either expannded or no limit) would really help alleviate the finding-a-party problem under the level limit system. Funky
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Post by mubu on Apr 19, 2006 18:49:11 GMT
Howdy everyone, I believe everyone has met me ingame by now "Luciferian, Asmodeus, Death, Mullah, Famine, Pestilence, etc..etc..". I just wanted to take the time to make my first post here and share a few of my impressions. Love the server and respect all the hard work that goes into it Funky and DM staff, it takes a lot of hard work, love for the game, and tons of patience. I used to play POA a lot back in the old 20th lvl cap AW days and since finding HG have renewed my interest in the game. I am a veteran player although i will not claim to be the best character builder or most knowledgable about anything in the game, but one thing i believe this mod was developed for and is being added to is to bring people together. Party play although not important to some makes the game soooo much more fun. Though I am not a fan of the level caps recently put in place I always try to look at things from every possible angle, and by doing so I can agree with some peoples complaints and at the same time I can see the true intentions for the change through Funkys explanations. I believe both the lowered xp for 60 and addition of items to compensate lvl 60+ experience is unnecessary, why not just form more dustbone and sssithrak runs. I have been playing for months and I play long hours and most days except Sunday and I have been to very few ssithrak, or desert runs and have never even seen an illithid. I am nice to everyone and party with 99% of the people i have met on there. I help people every chance I get ingame in hopes to form partys to go to these areas. I believe that just about every time I have logged in recently and seen a big run going on that it seems to have 1-2 dms there, my question I guess is this: "Does it take DM help to be able to do the biggest runs?" because it looks that way to me and I am sure I am not alone there. No disrespect for the DMs intended there just merely an observation.
Anywho, love the server and will try to be more verbal on the forums. Thanks again Funky and staff.
muBumonkey <Luciferian The Silent Lord>
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 19, 2006 19:13:45 GMT
The later missions do not require DM help, but they do require (or at least benefit greatly from) foreknowledge about what spawns and where. Since the DMs (especially Funky, archmage, and Balduvard) develop and/or play test the areas prior to their inclusion, they know the new areas better than most. Now that Ssithrak and the desert have been up for awhile, you do see quite a few player-led missions into them.
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Post by sabregirl on Apr 20, 2006 1:32:57 GMT
Just some quick (for me) extra thoughts to add. #1 I think the linear progression should be implemented or at least for the early levels - especially if we go with a 6 level limit with mortals vs. immortals. It just seems like the first few legendary levels are far too easy to get. Any delay in becoming immortal (do an extra loth or MoAD) and voila you've suddenly gained 5 levels right out of the gate. Probably a good idea to implementany XP change first, before imposing level limits - hopefully to get a less "lumpy" player distribution. #2 If we are going to limit immortal access to loth areas (and I think that's probably a good idea) - maybe we need another area for rest ring recharge. I'm pretty sure a lot of immortals were going on loth runs primarily for the ring recharge. I understand there are other "high" areas to have this done but I know there isn't one at the end of dustbone. Trying to get a party together for Immo run the other day was harder simply because a lot of chars needed a ring recharge, possibly still left over from the few days where the limits were imposed. #3 Another thought on the "self policing" issue. One thing I hate more than being leeched off of is being drug along myself. If there's a high level person in the party slaughtering everything, and not allowing my character to actually be tested, it really bothers me. I can't really kick that person out of the party without causing anger in the rest of the group or dire consequences. (they are bigger than you ). The only way to resolve that type of situation is level limits. I will mention I went on a Loth run (limits still in place) with a party of all mortals. They were mostly vets and it was one of the most orderly and downright enjoyable loth runs I've ever been on. ;D -S
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