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treant
Dec 15, 2006 9:22:55 GMT
Post by chainlink on Dec 15, 2006 9:22:55 GMT
Found another FA last night (in a two person run) and that's probably about the fourth I've come across either in party or solo. Bearing in mind it is the first choice for Cleric or Druid builds (BUR excepted) its not a suprise people will use it.
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treant
Dec 15, 2006 13:56:33 GMT
Post by Ironfang on Dec 15, 2006 13:56:33 GMT
You'd think so, but really there's no telling. With the recent McDupe scandal it could've been acquired another way. I remember about three months ago or so when fallen angel was a status symbol - Miles I think had it and it was just "Wow, dude! You have Fallen Angel!" Then suddenly, everyone had fallen angel. I was in parties of 4 or 5 people were everyone was an FA. In all the runs I've done, I've seen only one, maybe two FA books drop. Really makes you wonder. Ya I was just thinking yesterday that before UR subs existed, the normal secret subraces were more uncommon than the UR ones are today. I think this is due to the fact that they can be traded and used by anyone. It is too late now but perhaps URs and BURRs should have been level restricted to 55 or 60 so that you would have to have put in some time here before being able to use one. As it stands ('specially with the new maze) I think we will be seeing less and less of the original SS's.
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treant
Dec 15, 2006 14:41:10 GMT
Post by chainlink on Dec 15, 2006 14:41:10 GMT
When I was a lad we didn't even have the option to use any subraces! I'm not sure about the less of SS's as the Wizard and Sorcerer ones are still the best unless you get a BUR and the chance of getting the exact one you need (unless you have colossal resources to barter for it) are fairly slim. Obviously the longer HG exists the more of the subbys you will see as if people have them they will certainly use them to make the best toons they can. I also remember people moaning about all the Illithids there were around and that every other toon was an Illithid caster so I think its good that there are some new options to use.
Anyway back to the original thread - Treants suck and no matter how many keep dropping for me you're not going to see me using one for anything other than a bank toon.
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treant
Dec 15, 2006 19:00:05 GMT
Post by illandous on Dec 15, 2006 19:00:05 GMT
Huh, that would be a cool thing to have, Specialized bank toons. Can I get a sub-race for that? +15 st -20 to all other stats just to make sure that it's not exploited. Just for hauling around gear. Call it the "Human - PackRat" subrace. Auto hasted of course.
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treant
Dec 15, 2006 19:05:40 GMT
Post by Rodon_ on Dec 15, 2006 19:05:40 GMT
It's just that 0 dex means you can't move, 0 int, cha and wis means you're unconscious, and 0 con means you're dead.
According to NWNwiki. I've heard that you should trust it as far as you can throw it, and I've got no idea if the ability penalties really work like this on HG
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treant
Dec 15, 2006 21:05:56 GMT
Post by illandous on Dec 15, 2006 21:05:56 GMT
As long as we are being technical,
Just have the stats set statically on you next login. x str y dex z con
x y and z being constants.
Not that I think it will be done anynow, but that would probally be the way to go to prevent exploits, which was the purpose of my -20 to abilities.
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treant
Dec 18, 2006 13:27:31 GMT
Post by chainlink on Dec 18, 2006 13:27:31 GMT
I just max Str then use a Pixie (yes I know it gets a Str decrease) but with the purchase of a screen full of bags the carrying capacity ceases to be an issue. The reason for using a Pixie is the speed boost as it seems like you're walking in tar with any non-hasted low level toon after you've been playing with high level ones.
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treant
Dec 18, 2006 16:37:07 GMT
Post by azrael on Dec 18, 2006 16:37:07 GMT
Just make your bank a monk and use the rowan tree to get to 3. (or do monks only get 1 free level, i forget)
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treant
Dec 18, 2006 17:37:49 GMT
Post by Master Jaxx on Dec 18, 2006 17:37:49 GMT
They only get 1 lvl at the tree.
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treant
Dec 19, 2006 5:43:21 GMT
Post by thedomicron on Dec 19, 2006 5:43:21 GMT
bah...what does groo know about monks...
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treant
Dec 19, 2006 13:17:06 GMT
Post by rumphumper on Dec 19, 2006 13:17:06 GMT
I've played a treant shifter and I gotta say, I was impressed at first, until my weapons started randomly dissapearing. The speed was never an issue really, i just ported to leader alot more often in areas i could, and in areas i couldn't we didn't move fast enough for it to be a major problem.
The size is more of a hinderance then the speed... big sonuva ***** can't fit through any doors... getting around raz is a freakin nightmare *thank god i was a shifter*
IMO shifter is the only viable build for treant, just to negate the size without having to use way of the willow every 3 steps.
As of now.. since all of my weapons dissapeard the char is butt naked and on the shelf.. i only pull him out to stone orcs or farm or raz for some friends or random lowbies.
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treant
Dec 22, 2006 12:34:39 GMT
Post by chainlink on Dec 22, 2006 12:34:39 GMT
22/12/2006 Yet another Treant last night, I'm going to ritually burn the books!
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treant
Jan 7, 2007 18:57:40 GMT
Post by magicpants11 on Jan 7, 2007 18:57:40 GMT
If you're going to complain about the treant's speed, just make him a pure monk. It's amusing to imagine a huge tree running circles around an atomie, don't you think?
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treant
Jan 28, 2007 17:43:15 GMT
Post by setekhi on Jan 28, 2007 17:43:15 GMT
In comparison of treants and other races, I'll go ahead and get into this. For the purposes of comparison I'll be using a straight druid caster.
"Treant" (secret UltraRare subrace) - require Human (changes Appearance) STR +2, DEX -4, CON +3, WIS +5, +5 spellcraft, +10 animal empathy, free feat: Armor Skin, 25% vulnerable fire, 50% immune cold, increases character size to large, reduced base movement rate - slow
"Fallen Angel" (secret UltraRare subrace) - no race requirement (adds wings) WIS +5, CHA +2, +10 heal, free feat: Divine Might, free feat: Divine Shield, able to walk on quicksand
"Thri-Kreen" (secret subrace) - requires Human (changes Appearance) DEX +2, INT -2, WIS +2, CHA -2, increased base movement rate - fast, free feat: Alertness, free feat: Ambidexterity, free feat: Armor Skin, free feat: Deflect Arrows, free feat: Immunity to Sleep, able to walk on quicksand
"Doppleganger" (secret UltraRare subrace) - no race requirement (changes Appearance) STR -2, CON +2, WIS +5, CHA -2, free feat: Alertness, free feat: Creature Weapon Speacialization, free feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency
Now. Fallen Angels do not have any constitution bonus, and have irrelevant feat, skill, and charisma bonuses. As far as a druid is concerned, all they get is +5 Wisdom and can walk on sand, which is "nice," but it's not like we're talking about a staffmaster here. I would be a little more impressed if instead it could breathe water, but in any case, it's not strictly essential to have.
Thri-kreens have an irrelevant dex bonus, an int penalty, and only +2 wis. Both treant and thri-kreen have Armor Skin, but Deflect Arrows will probably never work considering it's just as likely you'll be going staff/shield. Walking on sand is cool but again, won't make or break the build.
Doppelgangers have irrelevant bonus feats, slightly less con, and a strength penalty. In any case, this choice comes closest I guess.
To sum up treant against all of these, treant's wisdom bonus is on par with the best UR options, they get enough of a con bonus to start out with 20, a necessary bonus feat, a net +25% elemental immunity (fire vulnerability actually being the easiest to compensate for, at least in my experience, most of my rings have fire and you can wear Baatezu Plate if you're so inclined), +15 useful skill points and a random strength bonus that doesn't hurt I guess (at least it's more useful than the thri-kreen's dex that's going to be negated by armor anyways). (It could open the race up for other goofiness like RDD I guess but it just as easily could be irrelevant if made as a shifter so I'll leave it at that.)
In my experience, the ONLY reason people won't play treants, despite the fact that they specifically created to be the best non-BUR choice possible for an important class (and at least comparable to rilmanai, if only because all the bonuses treants get are important and they get a con bonus to try and make up for not having that extra 1 DC I guess), is they don't like the "annoyance" of being so big and slow. But how necessary is the speed? How often does a primary caster have to run away from something when he's in the back anyways? Or middle for that matter. I have a hard time imagining speed being the only reason for backspawn - I would assume a weak build with a sub-optimal race would sooner cause it.
Think of a hypothetical. What if genie, say, had extra elemental immunity bonuses, but you had to use an item every once in a while to fit under some doorways? Wouldn't a builder interested only in performance make that trade? Yes, it would be annoying in Raz, and it's a uniquely clumsy drawback, but it's not like a caster doesn't have range, so if it counts, you don't HAVE to run along with the monk in your party. (Also it gives you an excuse to stay away from spectre's Mords I guess if you care heh.)
All in all, the drawbacks to treant I think are a comparable trade for how loltastic they are. The drawbacks also aren't in terms of stats either. I myself have started a treant, but admittedly haven't played it much, mostly due to working on other builds at the moment. The size is more obnoxious than the speed really, but having played RDD and shifter, it seems things will go smoothly as long as I remember what I'm doing. I wouldn't mind an increased speed bonus, but if it never gets one, it won't be critical. (And people will probably start picking more on the size once the speed penalty is negated.)
So I agree, if you hate the race despite all its benefits, I guess it's just not for you. Personally, if I couldn't accept a race that was optimal for an important build, I would try to find out why I was cutting myself off from optimization. But whatever.
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treant
Jan 28, 2007 19:18:03 GMT
Post by cathedralmaster on Jan 28, 2007 19:18:03 GMT
In comparison of treants and other races, I'll go ahead and get into this. For the purposes of comparison I'll be using a straight druid caster. It's sort of silly to base your comparison on a straight caster since the druid caster build of choice is splashed with monk and paladin. "Treant" (secret UltraRare subrace) - require Human (changes Appearance) STR +2, DEX -4, CON +3, WIS +5, +5 spellcraft, +10 animal empathy, free feat: Armor Skin, 25% vulnerable fire, 50% immune cold, increases character size to large, reduced base movement rate - slow "Fallen Angel" (secret UltraRare subrace) - no race requirement (adds wings) WIS +5, CHA +2, +10 heal, free feat: Divine Might, free feat: Divine Shield, able to walk on quicksand "Thri-Kreen" (secret subrace) - requires Human (changes Appearance) DEX +2, INT -2, WIS +2, CHA -2, increased base movement rate - fast, free feat: Alertness, free feat: Ambidexterity, free feat: Armor Skin, free feat: Deflect Arrows, free feat: Immunity to Sleep, able to walk on quicksand "Doppleganger" (secret UltraRare subrace) - no race requirement (changes Appearance) STR -2, CON +2, WIS +5, CHA -2, free feat: Alertness, free feat: Creature Weapon Speacialization, free feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency Now. Fallen Angels do not have any constitution bonus, and have irrelevant feat, skill, and charisma bonuses. As far as a druid is concerned, all they get is +5 Wisdom and can walk on sand, which is "nice," but it's not like we're talking about a staffmaster here. I would be a little more impressed if instead it could breathe water, but in any case, it's not strictly essential to have. With the paladin level, that +2 to charisma means +1 to all saves and the lack of any negatives means they don't lose anything. Thri-kreens have an irrelevant dex bonus, an int penalty, and only +2 wis. Both treant and thri-kreen have Armor Skin, but Deflect Arrows will probably never work considering it's just as likely you'll be going staff/shield. Walking on sand is cool but again, won't make or break the build. Thri-kreen is a secret race, not a UR one, and is traditionally believed to be the best secret alternative. Doppelgangers have irrelevant bonus feats, slightly less con, and a strength penalty. In any case, this choice comes closest I guess. Dopples have the same wisdom and slightly better constitution than FA at the price of -2 to all saves. To sum up treant against all of these, treant's wisdom bonus is on par with the best UR options, they get enough of a con bonus to start out with 20, a necessary bonus feat, a net +25% elemental immunity (fire vulnerability actually being the easiest to compensate for, at least in my experience, most of my rings have fire and you can wear Baatezu Plate if you're so inclined), +15 useful skill points and a random strength bonus that doesn't hurt I guess (at least it's more useful than the thri-kreen's dex that's going to be negated by armor anyways). (It could open the race up for other goofiness like RDD I guess but it just as easily could be irrelevant if made as a shifter so I'll leave it at that.) Compared to FAs, Treants get -3 to reflex saves and -1 to to will saves. The Armor skin feat is actually a negative to the build since the +2 to natural armor it gives (assuming you don't put any points into dex) only makes up for the -2 to AC you get from the race's dex penalty, meaning when all is said and done, Treant has lost a feat from the list of possible feats it can take. The only positives to take Treant are the +3 to con with no charisma or wisdom penalty, the +10 to animal empathy, and the 50% cold at the cost of -25% to fire. And for that, your forced to play the most annoying character since "Twinkle Toes" Luigi from the NES's Mario 2. But how necessary is the speed? How often does a primary caster have to run away from something when he's in the back anyways? Or middle for that matter. I have a hard time imagining speed being the only reason for backspawn - I would assume a weak build with a sub-optimal race would sooner cause it. Backspawn is when a spawn point ahead of you creates spawns in the admist of or behind you. As such, I don't really see what your saying here. As for running away, from what I've seen I would never play a slow race in the Hells. Things don't place nice down there - they don't always spawn in the lead and always attack your tanks. Instead half always seem to spawn in the middle and go right for your mages. You have to be able to run away - it's just not a choice.
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