Changing Sorc spells after 60

[archmage]

Spells arent feats, but if you want to aovid abuse of spell swapping, simply increase the cost, 10 million xp to change spells, 20 million to change spells. If you dont have the xp to cover it, you cant swap. ANd yes Vel, you COULD make a sorc with 5 foci, but congratulations, you just missed out on metamagic, the true strength of the sorc.

Maybe the answer to maintain the differences between wizards and sorcerors is to remove all the spellslot gear from wizards, since sorcs are supposed to get much more casts per lvl of spell, and the gear had rendered that inconsequential.

*Sits back and waits for the cries of oh no, dont nerf my wizard.

Well I say oh no, dont nerf my sorceror.

[velikibaatezu]

Heh arch, i have silent, empovered and maxed spells and maxed dc and ll spell pen, didnt miss anything there, what i did miss is improved combat casting which i dont need anyway.
And this is not wiz/sorc thing, i gave you an example of a battle paladins, mine got 81 ab and no smitte at all but it could have had 81 ab and 10 greater smittes if i lvled it after one of recent updates.
Its same with all other classes, you rebuild when updates make your build outdated i dont see why sorcs would be exception.
Sorcs get quite a lot already ( they can even get lvl 60 premonition with build 38s orc 1pally 1monk).
New spell requirments are only thing that are forcing people to remake sorcs, remove that and it really will be unbalanced for all other classes

[lala]

archmage said:

Spells arent feats, but if you want to aovid abuse of spell swapping, simply increase the cost, 10 million xp to change spells, 20 million to change spells. If you dont have the xp to cover it, you cant swap. ANd yes Vel, you COULD make a sorc with 5 foci, but congratulations, you just missed out on metamagic, the true strength of the sorc.

Maybe the answer to maintain the differences between wizards and sorcerors is to remove all the spellslot gear from wizards, since sorcs are supposed to get much more casts per lvl of spell, and the gear had rendered that inconsequential.

*Sits back and waits for the cries of oh no, dont nerf my wizard.

Well I say oh no, dont nerf my sorceror.

LOL how is your sorc nerfed because its level 60 and taken the spells that you want.....
Then a spell changes and you say it nerfs your build?
Thats the same as someone with 30 assassin saying their build is nerfed by the assassin 28 change, or a fighter who cannot take legendary disarm, etc because they are lvl 60, or more recently Paladin and assassin that didnt get the opportunity to use pc scry for the STR.

An ability changes players rebuild, a feat changes players rebuild, an epic spell changes players rebuild, not sure I see why its different if a spell changes Sorc should be allowed to change spells.

Out of interest, can a Wizard get more than 255 spells?
I thought from a recent posting it suggested they could not, if thats true then Sorc do get more spells than wiz, if its wrong sorry for posting incorrectly.
Lala

[archmage]

Its rather funny, because regardless of this entire debate, I'd put the chances of this actually happening somewhere around 2%.

But you are really trying to tell me that allowing a sorceror to redo his lvl 1 slots is all of a sudden going to throw the whole balance, which already now favors wizards, totally out of whack? About the only dramatic difference it would have on me would be not forcing me to ask a wizard druid or cleric to cast endure elements on me. Oh boy, stop me now! And knowing HG, its highly likely I'll have a real reason sooner then later to rebuild my 14th sorc yet again, not just for endure eles or maybe a spell breach which is available on every caster shield under the sun.

Only other thing I feel I should point out. As much as possible, we made changes retroactive so players didnt have to rebuild. Why should we, if possible, not do the same for sorcs?

And I really dont care overly much, sorcerors are probably the fastest and easiest toons to level of any build on the server. I think I got Shanah to lvl 60 in under 2 weeks, and I could have done it much faster if had wanted to.

[FunkySwerve]

alandrian said:

I personally think sorc items should have more spellslots than wiz one to account for that. But the 255 spell bug might do that with high gear anyway .

We've actually talked about doing this for nwn2, since the number of useful spells is huge, making sorcerers less appealing.
Funky

[archmage]

lala said:

Out of interest, can a Wizard get more than 255 spells?
I thought from a recent posting it suggested they could not, if thats true then Sorc do get more spells than wiz, if its wrong sorry for posting incorrectly.
Lala

I made many of the caster items, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms, I gave wizards spell slots equal to sorcs on all their gear. Running into the bioware limit was an unforeseen consequence. But even with the limit, Its very close on spell slots. I was speaking about something much more drastic, possibly halving the number of spells wizards get on their gear, since its supposed to be the Sorc's primary strength. that sounds reasonable right? I mean since its bioware's intention that sorc's have more spells then wizards?

Maybe you didnt notice the dripping sarcasm inhernent in the post. I dont actually think its a good idea, but it echoes your thoughts toward sorcerors.

[DragonChyld]

I am gonna have to play ball on Arch's team here, to me changing feats is making it possible to change every aspect of your toon. With a caster you could have different epics, you could change your focuses ect, with a melee you could grab save feats you never got, you could change your weapons ect.. the basic point being you can change your toon 100%. After all, Feats are what DEFINE our characters. As Arch stated a couple of times, a sorc who has spell focus Necro, but not Illusions is not going to be changing his spells around for Wierds.... Just my opinion.

~ DC

[cathedralmaster]

velikibaatezu said:

Heh arch, i have silent, empovered and maxed spells and maxed dc and ll spell pen, didnt miss anything there, what i did miss is improved combat casting which i dont need anyway.

Sorry Veliki but that's impossible - even with Radiance Genasi picking up empower, silent, and max for free. You have 28 feats on a human sorc build - minus 10 great charisma leaves you with 18. Minus four more for spell penetration and your left with 14 - one short even if you only took the 1-3 spell foci on all of them.

[velikibaatezu]

To cath; Heres list of my epic feats;
10 Great charismas, epic skill focus discipline
epic spell focuses;transmutation,divination,evocation(this was mistake as i thought bigby dc depends on focus),illusion,conjuration(some time ago epic bigby was usefull).
Legendary spell focus illusion, i surely didnt take legendary focus in conjuration, or divination, or transmutation, neither i took ll spell focus in evocation as its worth nothing.Only ll focus you do need, for hells atleast is either in necromancy or illusion.

Also have legendary spell penetration, and 3 meta feats i got from radiance.
To Arch; hm arch so you are mentioning spell slots as something sorcs are meant to have more then wizards, ok fine.
Now if i recall when there was sorc vs wiz debate you said wizards get lvl 60 premonition which means so much more in hells, ok fine, but wait there is item in game with plenty of spell slots which is giving sorcs lvl 60 premonition, so you gave to sorcs one of wizies advanatages,as a matter of fact one you said that makes all the diference,so whats the problem then with spell slots which were given to wizards.

[cathedralmaster]

velikibaatezu said:

To cath; Heres list of my epic feats;
10 Great charismas, epic skill focus discipline
epic spell focuses;transmutation,divination,evocation(this was mistake as i thought bigby dc depends on focus),illusion,conjuration(some time ago epic bigby was usefull).
Legendary spell focus illusion, i surely didnt take legendary focus in conjuration, or divination, or transmutation, neither i took ll spell focus in evocation as its worth nothing.Only ll focus you do need, for hells atleast is either in necromancy or illusion.

Oh yeah, forgot about the book - sorry man, my mistake.

[nohmask]

Ways to use the millions of xp you rack up with a great toon are an intersting idea, and this is an unmined territory. Ive seen some servers use a forge system to utilize the xp, and if the scriping genius...um...ai ? geniusai ? (heh..not to say there are some AIs on this server but sometimes I do wonder) could think of an easy way to use up some of that xp that made playing more fun for all why not ! I think a nice way to balance this would be to have some wizard specific things using XP that reflected what supposedly is one of the differences between the two builds...feats...or have some more gear that is wizard only you could get with XP a way to balance it all out.

This conversation has not thuroughly included the wiz vs sorc issue of the meta magics that are a possibility on the horizon, and reflect a reason why I think a lot of people take sorcerer over wizard already...easier to play and more efficient use of spell slots. With sorcerer, no memorizing all those summons spells, that will be completely useless if not used. Re setting spells and trying to figure out how many of each you take per run area is a LOT more work than almost all players want to engage in, and honestly there are a lot of times I do not use all my spells up due to their being locked into a certain type....so essentially sorcerers already have more spell slots as they have a large amount of spells available for every slot at any time, where a wizard has....1 .

With the metas this obviously will greatly effect the usability of each spell slot even more, enough to make even a hard core wizard only player seriously consider building a sorcerer. This, if nothing else in this should open some eyes to the ongoing sorcerer versus wizard debate, and Im betting that you will not have any wizards playing the hells soon if you and switch your spells as well and dont give something to make them more desirable, other than just for people that due to their personality like the whole wizard thing (masochists ? heh...), esp. when you consider you wont have to take any save bonus feats with a paladin/samuri slashed in there...that frees up at least two feats there on my new rebuild that is totally hells oriented.

Lets remember though, that this is only a game as they say...and there are reasons for picking a type of build beyond some great tactical advantage (that is percieved at least..). As usual though, I love the additions that are made to this server, and Im not sure how they could spell doom really for anything, as if they are problematic the DMs always seem to be able to make adjustments that have people singing their praises again.

By the way, what is this level 60 premonition thing sorcerers can get even though they are not level 60 by the way? That one went totally under my radar.....N.

[gruntgruntson]

nohmask said:

Ways to use the millions of xp you rack up with a great toon are an intersting idea, and this is an unmined territory. Ive seen some servers use a forge system to utilize the xp, and if the scriping genius...um...ai ? geniusai ? (heh..not to say there are some AIs on this server but sometimes I do wonder) could think of an easy way to use up some of that xp that made playing more fun for all why not !

I know the wiz vs sorc feud debate is an ongoing one, and not likely to be solved any time soon.
Also, I struggle to play either of them, preferring melee/archer types.

It would be interesting to see some way of non-casters using up those post-60 XP points.

[Yomi]

I'd love seeing sorcs able to change spells after level 60. Limitations such as 1M+500k/spell-level xp per spell change, and/or allowing it only at a mage device on level 3 or lower in Hells.

Sorcs get to change every one of their spells completely from level 20 through 59 with 1M or less xp between changes, so letting them change one spell for a bundle of xp after 60 seems to me like it changes nothing in the wizard / sorc balance, and isn't really adding new abilities (vs. allowing melee types to change weapon foci or weapon of choice which would be new). Let's view this as a "wow, that's great!" instead of "but my class doesn't get something so I don't want anybody else to!"

It'd be nice to see rangers change favored enemies also (and wow how much harder for a ranger to get an extra 5M xp than it is for a sorc, so forget changing them at a whim). Probably not going to work out in terms of implementation.

[velikibaatezu]

I'll say for like 5th time;1. New spell requirments are what makes sorcs outdated, most sorcs on server have same spell focuses and are for sure same 38 1 1 build.They got covered saves so now if they could just change spells there wouldnt be reason to re build sorc ever again, unlike for any other class.

2. Wizards are ones who prepare spells before ongoing battle
while sorcs ''improvize'' with what they have at given situation.
Theres reason why bioware didnt give them option to change spells after they hit finnal lvl(and imo its to make diference between them and wizs).

3. There were suggestions for xp to be used as xp bank which were all refused, that was one idea what to do with xp which would favour all classes. I think its way to wrong to let only one class have benefits of extra xp.
Should wm then get to change weapon focus by trading some xp?

[bhao]

velikibaatezu said:

Theres reason why bioware didnt give them option to change spells after they hit finnal lvl(and imo its to make diference between them and wizs).

not only did bioware implement a way to let sorcerers change spells on level up (which is against dnd rules), they also didn't do anything to keep you from leveling down and up one level to keep changing spells over and over once you hit that final level (by repeatedly dying for example). i am pretty sure, the only reason there is no other way to do it, is that they had more important things to put into nwn and/or didn't even think about it. there is no way this is on purpose to emphasize the difference between wizzes and sorcs. the only reason this level down/up thing doesn't work here is because of legendary levels.