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Post by mishimayukio on Jun 1, 2007 20:12:14 GMT
Was discussing this during last night's stygia run and Acaos came up with a nice idea. I, along with many others picked the wrong spells for the hells on our sorcs, or changes to spells made our choices less than optimal. I suggest that level 60 sorcs be given to the option to change 1 spell for the cost of 1-2 million XP, repeatable until the next time would drop the sorc's XP under 12.5 million.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jun 1, 2007 20:58:17 GMT
How would that be different than Delf complaining that she choose less than optimal spell foci and how she should be given the option to change them? One feats and the others spell choices but it seems to me your essentially looking at the same kind of matter.
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Post by gruntgruntson on Jun 1, 2007 21:06:27 GMT
Response 1) I built a Dwarven Defender before the Legendary Saves were introduced. Can I spend a couple of Million XP to swap a few Feats around? He could really do with that extra reflex save! Response 2) Surely you mean "Can I play a Wizard Please?"
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Post by dodrudon on Jun 1, 2007 21:16:07 GMT
The forte of a wizard over sorc is spell variety, if a sorc can change spells, why not switch to PWKs for a quick sissy run, then switch back to TS/grabbies or whatnot for when going back to Hells? It nerfs a major wizardly advantage over sorcs.
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Post by stonewarrior on Jun 1, 2007 21:57:09 GMT
While I would love to go back and change the last two feats on my Halfling death to boost his Will save I can see the reasoning behind allowing such a move. That said, it seems that a Sorcerer (or a Bard or any other caster that must select and can not change at 60) changing spells is different than changing feats around. The suggestion by Yue (and Acaos) would not involve a character "reworking" the make up of the character as much as changing feats. Wizards are able to switch spells with a rest and if a spell change is made they are not penalized because they did not choose it prior to leveling to 60.
Anyway, I do not play casters...I just do not see it being the same as feat switching.
Peace, John.
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Post by archmage on Jun 1, 2007 22:29:56 GMT
I havent got bit quite as hard by this since I rebuild my sorcs frequently. The major difference here is, sorcs wont have the foci they need as they are considerably less feat healthy then their wizard counterparts. So it isnt like they could say omg, I want weird now, and have it be effective if they didnt take the appropriate focus (in this case illusion) It is considerably different from changing feats later. And sorcs would still be limited to their maximum number of spells per level.
As to the person who said they could swap spells to visit different areas, what lvl 60 sorc with 20 million xp in their right mind would swap spells to take pwk for an illithid run at the cost of 2 million xp per swap?
The reason this is really being discussed is the lower level buff spells that are suddenly useful, a la endure elements. In reality, this really wouldn't have much effect at all in terms of game balance between sorcs and wizards, if any.
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Post by archmage on Jun 1, 2007 22:30:52 GMT
Response 1) I built a Dwarven Defender before the Legendary Saves were introduced. Can I spend a couple of Million XP to swap a few Feats around? He could really do with that extra reflex save! Response 2) Surely you mean "Can I play a Wizard Please?" Actually it would be more like saying, hmm, these undead are resistant to slashing, I think i'll pull out a warhammer instead of my axe.
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Post by gruntgruntson on Jun 1, 2007 22:52:49 GMT
OK. Can my WM change his Weapon of choice, as I found out there's lots of Undead and I chose Longsword. ;P
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Post by dodrudon on Jun 1, 2007 23:01:45 GMT
Wouldn't you change your prestige class, because undead are immune to crits?
I guess Yue does have a point, maybe scale spell swap cost depending on spell level....
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Post by archmage on Jun 2, 2007 3:14:37 GMT
OK. Can my WM change his Weapon of choice, as I found out there's lots of Undead and I chose Longsword. ;P No, he cant, but then again, neither can a caster, as I explained earlier, change his focus, and high lvl effective spells require the appropriate focus. So like your wm could use any weapon he has the proficiencies for, whether or not it was optimal due to his wpn focus, a sorc could then select another spell, whether or not he had the focus in it. both would be able to use them, but not fully because of the fact they didnt invest in the feats. Thanks for proving my point though.
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Post by atomicsomething on Jun 2, 2007 7:46:09 GMT
err ... dont forget the bards please.
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Post by velikibaatezu on Jun 2, 2007 9:51:41 GMT
My sorc missed some spells too but i dont think its right to give them choice to change spells after 60, arch sorc with bur suby can get 5 spell focuses. My battle paladin took 10 great strenghts and few days later smite turned into greater strenght + greater smitte in one, you dont get chance to swap greater strenght for smitte, i think its same. All classes require rebuilding as areas are updated, give sorcs option to change spells as they wish and they wont have need to rebuild, with 5 focuses you can cover pretty much all you need.
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Post by lala on Jun 2, 2007 10:10:47 GMT
My sorc missed some spells too but i dont think its right to give them choice to change spells after 60, arch sorc with bur suby can get 5 spell focuses. My battle paladin took 10 great strenghts and few days later smite turned into greater strenght + greater smitte in one, you dont get chance to swap greater strenght for smitte, i think its same. All classes require rebuilding as areas are updated, give sorcs option to change spells as they wish and they wont have need to rebuild, with 5 focuses you can cover pretty much all you need. Nicely put Vel. All of us have builds that we have had to do many times due to changes. I can see that the argument for changing sorc spells is that they are not feats, but as was hinted at before it would be possible to choose the optimal spells for each level of the hells. This makes them closer to being wizards rather than sorc. The question is: Should casters be given preferental treatment when spells change compared to other classes when their abilities/feats change? My feeling is that they should all be treated equally and this means unfortunately Sorc would need to rebuild like every other class. Cheers Lala
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Post by alandrian on Jun 2, 2007 10:45:07 GMT
I think the point is wrong. The question should be more like: Should a level 59 be treated different than a level 60 one? A non-level 60 Sorc can swap all spells around like he wants to each level. He cant swap feats or stat points. So actally spell swapping from time to time is part of the class. You actually have to rebuild your sorc if you took the wrong feats/splash classes etc... Infact i like the idea. And it wont make a sorc to a better wiz. Wiz can have more different level 9 spells at the same time. So they can afford Grabbies, Wierd, Wail and MS for example while a sorc can just have three. On the other hand the difference in spells/rest is quite soften out on HG because most spells come from items. I personally think sorc items should have more spellslots than wiz one to account for that. But the 255 spell bug might do that with high gear anyway .
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Post by lala on Jun 2, 2007 11:25:33 GMT
I think the point is wrong. The question should be more like: Should a level 59 be treated different than a level 60 one? A non-level 60 Sorc can swap all spells around like he wants to each level. He cant swap feats or stat points. So actally spell swapping from time to time is part of the class. You actually have to rebuild your sorc if you took the wrong feats/splash classes etc... Infact i like the idea. And it wont make a sorc to a better wiz. Wiz can have more different level 9 spells at the same time. So they can afford Grabbies, Wierd, Wail and MS for example while a sorc can just have three. On the other hand the difference in spells/rest is quite soften out on HG because most spells come from items. I personally think sorc items should have more spellslots than wiz one to account for that. But the 255 spell bug might do that with high gear anyway . Well thats also like saying should a lvl 60 who gets their last feat be treated any different to a lvl 59 sorc who gets their last spell, should that lvl 60 be able to change that feat because of tweaks? Where do you draw the line? What about if you did a SD build that had 29 levels and with the changes to their abilities want the 30 levels for damage reduction and extra attack. Or how about saying you did 29 levels of CoT and with the change you really want the 30 levels. You mention how a lvl 59 can change their spells around but this is a tweak of HG, lets not forget a Sorc is meant to only change spells at times they level up. If I can change my spells ad-hoc, why would I ever build a Wizard instead of a Sorc that can go past the 255 spell limit? Its open to abuse in the way you could change spells to be specific for each layer of hells. Also I think its unfair to other classes that have to rebuild when something changes. Again it comes back to the question I raised, you are in favour of bias towards Sorc spells as changes to not just feats but actual class abilities require a rebuild for anything else. Lets not forget Wizards are meant to swap their spells but Sorc are meant to stay with those they gain innately through their powers. Level 60 is the cap so why should Sorc gain the ability to change spells when their powers cap at this point? Lala
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