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Post by Lee on Jun 19, 2011 3:46:21 GMT
According to this algorithm, even mm Channel 3 does not add 1 ab on evards meh It's not a flat - 10. Rather, it's: int nAB = (si.clevel*5)/6; if (si.class != CLASS_TYPE_INVALID) { int nMod = GetCasterAbilityModifier(si.id, si.class, si.caster); int nFocus = GetCasterSpellFocus(si.school, si.caster, si.clevel, si.class); nAB += (nMod / 2) + (nFocus * 3); So the extra 1 from base channel is not enough for another point (ints always round down). Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 19, 2011 3:51:26 GMT
According to this algorithm, even mm Channel 3 does not add 1 ab on evards meh Actually, it doesn't - it adds 2. Math fail. Observe: no channel: (60*5)/6 = 50 mm 1 channel: (61*5)/6 = 50 mm 2 channel: (62*5)/6 = 51 mm 3 channel: (63*5)/6 = 52 Funky
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Post by Lee on Jun 19, 2011 3:59:12 GMT
oh my bad According to this algorithm, even mm Channel 3 does not add 1 ab on evards meh Actually, it doesn't - it adds 2. Math fail. Observe: no channel: (60*5)/6 = 50 mm 1 channel: (61*5)/6 = 50 mm 2 channel: (62*5)/6 = 51 mm 3 channel: (63*5)/6 = 52 Funky
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Post by starlandra on Jun 19, 2011 5:18:43 GMT
that sound just now... the one you all just heard in your houses all over this lovely planet... that was the sound of my head exploding as I tried to follow the math just now.. AND THAT is why I don't play mages
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Post by Enius the White on Jun 19, 2011 16:43:02 GMT
Here are a few of my impressions of these changes so far. They are based on only 2 hell runs and a couple of hours solo in Hades.
1) The Paly splash Disease Imm. nerf really hurts. My Cleric, Druid, Bard and Wiz all just lost disease immunity. Disease immunity is, of course, not covered by Tia gear, so all except my bard have no realistic way to get it without a complete juggling of the ~3 key pieces of non Tia gear that they each use. Fortunately I have 40+ chests of extra burs and 40 chests of augs, so I'm sure that I can find setups that will work again, once I can scrounge ~6 hours of play time to rifle through chests and toons... What a royal pain in the wazoo. This change will reduce small party stability, make run (particularly abyss) formation more difficult, and likely reduce build diversity.
2) The Evards nerf was pretty harsh. I do not understand how this spell can go unchanged for over half a decade, then require a sudden 10 point ab "balancing". I would argue that ~2 points per update would be a more intelligent way to adjust things like this. The same thing happened with lvl 8 Bigby's, where ~100% of Sorcs needed it pre-nerf, then ~0% had it after. I guess nothing was learned from that failed "balance" attempt.
3) It's probably too early to determine the Bard nerf's impact on run formation. I did 2 shallow hell runs. They both had a bard. Balance (with bard) seemed pretty much unchanged, which is good. I do not doubt that more people will now consider bard-less shallow hell runs. It only makes sense.
4) I like the effect of the shunt nerf. Still powerful, but should encourage more attention to individual element defense where possible (maybe at the expense of extreme offense?). This should increase small party stability (more people will be able to be useful after getting rezed etc.), make run formation easier, and possibly increase build diversity.
5) The multiple item special power cheese nerf was a no-brainer.
Thanks to the development team for all the work that went into this update.
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Post by MurphysLawAgain on Jun 19, 2011 17:33:05 GMT
Regarding the Evards change, I have heard a lot from players about this. Enius's post is a good example.
Its worth remembering a few things.
1) Evards was grossly overpowered. Having a single lvl 4 cloud spell doing large chunks of arcane caster damage over a run is not a tenable position. With the exception of a couple of end of abyss bosses it hit anything in its AOE almost every time. Now it will still hit - but not everything, every time. Playing a wizard or sorceror shouldn't be about spamming one spell repeatedly but using different spells depending on the situation.
2) Evards was uprated with the conjuration changes some time ago - but surely not 10 years ago. Its a beta server, effects are changed over time to meet perceived need. At the moment no-one is saying wizard or sorceror is so underpowered as to need extra goodies are they? And the fact that when a spell is no longer seen as cool it gets dropped by many or most sorcerors does not mean that was the right or sensible thing for them to do? Evards, like Bigby 8 before it, does in fact have a number of uses - but for the spell tight sorceror it is now forcing choices - which is exactly what the dev team aim for.
3) As I remember the dev discussion everyone agreed that Evards was grossly overpowered. If by the dismissive "nothing was learned from that failed balance attempt" you mean that the dev team aren't inclined to worry too much if a spell falls out of favour by being reduced to situational usefullness - you are right. The question that mostly applies is "Does the class work?" not "Is that power or spell less cool than it used to be?".
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 19, 2011 18:38:30 GMT
Here are a few of my impressions of these changes so far. They are based on only 2 hell runs and a couple of hours solo in Hades. 2) The Evards nerf was pretty harsh. I do not understand how this spell can go unchanged for over half a decade, then require a sudden 10 point ab "balancing". Shorter answer than Murphy's: it didn't. As for the paladin splash reducing build diversity: on what do you base that conclusion? Funky
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Post by jonuhey on Jun 19, 2011 20:48:36 GMT
Here are a few of my impressions of these changes so far. They are based on only 2 hell runs and a couple of hours solo in Hades. 1) The Paly splash Disease Imm. nerf really hurts. My Cleric, Druid, Bard and Wiz all just lost disease immunity. Disease immunity is, of course, not covered by Tia gear, so all except my bard have no realistic way to get it without a complete juggling of the ~3 key pieces of non Tia gear that they each use. Fortunately I have 40+ chests of extra burs and 40 chests of augs, so I'm sure that I can find setups that will work again, once I can scrounge ~6 hours of play time to rifle through chests and toons... What a royal pain in the wazoo. This change will reduce small party stability, make run (particularly abyss) formation more difficult, and likely reduce build diversity. There is a disease immunity mote and 3 augments with it: Clockwork's (rare) and Gollem's (UR) and a BUR one that I dont know the name. Thou easier one is mote. At least my druid (that dont have paladin splash) uses disease mote.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jun 19, 2011 21:28:43 GMT
The BUR is Eidolon's, though that only helps if found on a useable item.
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Post by shardelay on Jun 19, 2011 22:19:39 GMT
We did a bardless Malb this afternoon. It also had no ploder, a boxed turner, only 9 ppl, and only one mage. We did have a charisma based turner song for buffing. We had no shifter or pm or SD to curse. (folks, dont forget that pm's and shifter's can curse!)
The run had its painful moments, and we limbo'd more than a normal run, but it was quite doable. PF/Male are randoms only on malb, but advespas and spins force plenty of KD checks. We just had to change our target priority a bit.
It started rough and we had some iffy moments, but i think if everyone changes their tactics a bit, watches where they stand depending on their str/dex, uses pt2, and kills KD mobs faster, it's not horrible.
A phleg, mala, or cania run would be a different story, but the change definitely helps. We were still able to gust reasonably well w/out curse.
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Post by buddhamind on Jun 19, 2011 23:26:52 GMT
We did a bardless Malb this afternoon. It also had no ploder, a boxed turner, only 9 ppl, and only one mage. We did have a charisma based turner song for buffing. We had no shifter or pm or SD to curse. (folks, dont forget that pm's and shifter's can curse!) The run had its painful moments, and we limbo'd more than a normal run, but it was quite doable. PF/Male are randoms only on malb, but advespas and spins force plenty of KD checks. We just had to change our target priority a bit. It started rough and we had some iffy moments, but i think if everyone changes their tactics a bit, watches where they stand depending on their str/dex, uses pt2, and kills KD mobs faster, it's not horrible. A phleg, mala, or cania run would be a different story, but the change definitely helps. We were still able to gust reasonably well w/out curse. Also don't forget to mention that a couple of our tanks had never even seen Malb before. I thought it was very smooth, for not having a bard, and considering all the aforementioned factors. I would definitely consider running Phleg, Malad or Cania without a bard, especially if the party was strong.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jun 19, 2011 23:46:54 GMT
We did a bardless Malb this afternoon. It also had no ploder, a boxed turner, only 9 ppl, and only one mage. We did have a charisma based turner song for buffing. We had no shifter or pm or SD to curse. (folks, dont forget that pm's and shifter's can curse!) And with the change the gap in power between a harpy or PM curse and a bard curse is significantly lessened.
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Post by Enius the White on Jun 19, 2011 23:54:31 GMT
Funky, in response to your question, the paly splash was already on life support as a viable build option for most builds. It has been for a long time. The Eye of V changes, key "evil only" spells, extreme pure build perks, etc, had already taken their toll. Even before this disease imm. nerf, many formerly useful paly splash builds were already broken.
Most of us agree that splash builds were a good way for newer players, without perfect gear sets, to survive and be productive in end game parties. Smaller, less organized, and newer player parties benefited the most from paly splash builds that could survive and recover better without the full support of complete/ideal party buffs, defenses and tanks. We also agree that experienced players with perfect gear sets, in strong parties, prefer pure builds because of the extreme party power boost that the synergies of multiple pure builds provides. Without paly splash builds we end up with an even steeper gradient where newer players have little choice but to shelter under the charitable wing of one of a few guilds who shower them with the necessary requirements to hurdle them straight to the "vet" build/tag/gear set-ups. Not everyone wants this. Of the factors that we can control, this void in new, independently/organically developing end-game players is imho HGs Achilles heel.
Over the years I have, arguably, been the most avid proponent of splash builds. I have discussed/debated the pros and cons with Rain and others, in game, at length. I've always enjoyed the fact that there were important niches for splash builds, and loved some of the intriguing build results they could produce. I am pretty sure that when, as now, you have pretty much convinced me that splash builds are inevitably a waste of time, there can be very few players left on that side of the "balance" equation.
I do not want to overstate the importance of paly splash builds. It is only one on many factors in the game. I just remember what it was initially like getting into end game runs. I remember how sturdy, splash caster builds were the cornerstone in providing a window into the end game for me. And, I clearly remember the first few weeks that HC came out. With no one uber there to help out, there sure were a lot of double splash HC toons out and about. I just think it is unfortunate that new players have had this easily accessible opportunity systematically nerfed by us old-timers, who do not need it anymore.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 20, 2011 0:17:12 GMT
We did a bardless Malb this afternoon. It also had no ploder, a boxed turner, only 9 ppl, and only one mage. We did have a charisma based turner song for buffing. We had no shifter or pm or SD to curse. (folks, dont forget that pm's and shifter's can curse!) The run had its painful moments, and we limbo'd more than a normal run, but it was quite doable. PF/Male are randoms only on malb, but advespas and spins force plenty of KD checks. We just had to change our target priority a bit. What was your demicount? Funky
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jun 20, 2011 1:16:50 GMT
It is my stoutest belief that people weren't splashing Paladin for the disease immunity.
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