Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 22:41:07 GMT
I was prompted to post these suggestions by Bale's thread here, and in some ways it's also a bump/continuation to my original thread here. I did already have the bulk of this post pre-written, but had never gotten around to tidying it up and posting it earlier.
The clear issue today is that almost 6 months post-release, most players have barely touched Limbo. I certainly feel that the lack of interest is a slap in the face to the hours volunteered by Funky/Acaos, especially after years of 'in three days' comments; it's impossible to deny that there is an obvious mismatch between pre-release and post-release levels of interest.
I don't really see it as a low server population issue (though overall low population will always mean overall less runs) - to my eye, the server has been much more active this year than last year, and I would argue that the Limbo patch has stimulated endgame activity significantly for every run EXCEPT Limbo. Case in point, these days HG has only one active 'endgame guild' doing scheduled runs, but their focus seems to be on Abyss cycles despite Limbo having never been completed.
From my observations as a player, I think that there are three main reasons why Limbo has not captured the interest of server's endgame population:
(a) The runs are too difficult for most players to enjoy
Most attention has been on P1-Easy, which is the easiest Limbo run by far. Even so, the difficulty of this run seems to have blown away all but the strongest of players, while Hard mode is so difficult that completing isn't viable most of the time.
Right now, the runs are in a state of "no one does Hard mode, the best players do Easy mode, good players do Abyss", and I think the runs should be scaled down to turn it into "the best players do Hard mode, good players do Easy mode".
(b) The runs don't feel rewarding enough
An issue I (prematurely) raised, but in hindsight it was still on the mark. The run doesn't *feel* rewarding, with the carrot of XRs being simply too small and too far away to be appealing. This also intertwines with (a), because many players who struggle with the area don't feel the incentive to practice and learn the run - to most people, I think XRs feel like way too much trouble to acquire so they just accept not bothering with them.
(c) For the few Limbo-veterans, there is little incentive to do anything that ISN'T a 5-toon P1 (Easy) run.
I've played Limbo more than anyone except Raj, but at this stage I've mostly lost interest in the area. In theory there are four runs available (P1/P2 with Easy/Hard modes), but the harder modes take a lot longer to finish. Since there is no tagging bonus for Limbo, the only real goal is Canopics (and thus XRs), and all four runs have comparable rates of Canopics/hour despite the difficulty scaling up exponentially. Due to Limbo's dynamic spawning system (an idea which I *love* in theory, but the execution needs tweaking), a 10-toon party is not much faster than a 5-toon party but the level of Canopic-drop scaling means that 5-toon parties earn significantly more Canopics per player.
In short, 5-toon P1 (Easy) runs yield the highest Canopic rates with the lowest risk, making anything else extremely uneconomical.
-----
In terms of 'fixing' the run, one obvious issue is developer availability. I have a huge amount of respect for Funky and Acaos' personal time and the volunteer work they dedicate to the server, so I think the ideal solution is to focus on 'high-yield' changes; ones that would boost interest in the area while requiring relatively low amounts of dev-work, such as tweaking drop-rates/areas that are already in the game.
Some suggestions that I have come up with in regards to the three issues I raised above - I'm sure that the dev staff have already thought of some similar ideas, but I'll just post them anyway.
MAKE THE RUNS EASIER:
(1) Add 'Learner Mode'
Introduce an option which has NO Paragon mobs, but no Canopics outside of the ones dropping from bosses.
The run would not be very profitable, but serves a good purpose by easing players to the run and letting them learn the critters and required strategies in a safer environment.
(2) Reduce spawn sizes in all modes
Huge spawn sizes are the main reason the run is so difficult - IMO the mobs themselves are at a good place, but it's easy to get overwhelmed (especially during double spawns). The spawn sizes in Hard mode get absolutely HUGE which makes the run inappropriately difficult and unappealing.
Pulling a number out of my head, I would trial something like a ~15% reduction in spawn-sizes for Normal mode, and a ~25% reduction for Hard point.
(3) Divide Part 2 into two halves (ie: Part 2 and 3)
Part 2 is extremely difficult, and is time-consuming and very harsh on rests - it's not easy organising a group to get it done. A large source of difficulty is simply the limited number of rests. 10 charges in Limbo is an average of 5 rests per run (minimum of 4 rests if you roll poorly). Think P1's 4 maps + Boss was tough on rest counts? P2's first 4 maps + Mini-boss are orders are magnitude harder than P1... and then there's an extra 2 maps + final Boss attached afterwards.
Separate the run into P2 (Maps 1/2/4 with Guardian of the Stone as a boss) and Part 3 (Maps 3/5/6 with Ygorl/Ssendem as boss); make entry into P2/P3 set your Planar Ring to 8 charges, meaning you have an average of 4 rests (minimum of 3) for 3 maps, a comparable level of rest-constraint to P1.
(4) Make Layer Penalties scale through each part
An easy way to make the runs a little more forgiving. Instead of having Layer 9 penalties for all of Limbo, scale them up for each section.
Following on from Suggestion (3), perhaps Layer 5/7/9 penalties for Parts 1/2/3 respectively might be appropriate?
MAKE THE RUNS MORE REWARDING:
(5) Reduce Canopic-prices of XRs
This would probably be the single biggest change to make the area more attractive. XRs are the main appeal for the run, but they are damn slow to acquire - it's very discouraging to finish a slog of a run and think "cool, I just need to do that 7-8 more times to get my first item!".
I think on paper the belief was that getting a single XR would result in a decent power boost (and thus the intention was for them to be very scarce), but in practice the average XR is not that great compared to good BURs. I've bought more XRs than anyone else on the server and they really are a gamble. I've become a convert to Funky's 'gradual change' model, so I think trialling a moderate reduction of XR prices for a few months might be helpful.
Suggestion: Reduce Canopic prices for XRs by 40% (ie: 30 canopics for 1 random XR, 150 canopics for 1 random XR of a specific type)
(6) Boost experience (and gold) rewards in Limbo by a LOT
One of the 'side benefits' of doing any run. It's well known that the experience required in Paragon levels gets ridiculously high (eg: the difference between Level 65 and Level 80 is ~100 million XP). It is logical and satisfying for level-appropriate runs to give better XP than lower level runs. You could make the argument that OPTIMIZED farming of weaker opponents (ie: memorising triggers + using optimal routes/techniques for killing the mobs speedrun style) could give comparable XP rates to 'sloppy yet successful' farming of level-appropriate opponents.
At the moment, Limbo does NOT follow this trend. The entire P1 (Easy) yields ~400-550k XP depending on party size, typically ending at 250-350k XP per hour. Compare this to shallow Hell runs, which yield ~600k a piece (I regularly break the 1 million XP per hour mark when soloing) despite being much shorter and much easier.
Making the area very attractive as an 'XP farming ground' also has the side-advantage of encouraging players not to use Level 80 toons.
The P1 gold piles drop 1.2 billion gold total, which is less than an Abyss P3.
Suggestion: Add an (at least) 4x multiplier to Limbo XP, to make typical XP/run closer to the 1 million/hour mark. Gold is a bit harder to pick a number for, but I think it should definitely be a fair bit higher than the Abyss.
INCENTIVIZE LARGER PARTIES AND THE HARDER MODES:
(7) Greater scaling on Canopic drops with increased party size and demi-count
The concept of scaling spawn sizes to the party size is a good idea because it makes completing the run with smaller parties viable (great for lower server populations) without making it a roflstomp for big parties. It also discourages the use of leecher bots, since any bot that isn't actively played will make the run significantly harder due to increased spawn sizes. Large demi-counts also increase the difficulty of the run greatly, but this doesn't appear to have a large impact on Canopic drops.
I mentioned it briefly at the start, but the issue is that the current amount of scaling heavily favours doing the run with a small group (though it must be said that there is still *some* degree of scaling). Example numbers of often-seen rewards are:
5-toon party = ~9 per person
8-toon party = ~7 per person
10-toon party = ~6 per person
IMO the entire model should be adjusted so that large parties gain *more* Canopics than small parties. This creates an incentive for larger parties (encourages inclusiveness, a highlighted issue for the last few years), and as stated above the fact that larger parties aren't much faster + botting is inappropriate for Limbo means there is little potential for abuse with this sort of model.
Suggested numbers:
5-toon party = ~9 per person
8-toon party = ~10 per person
10-toon party = ~11 per person
[If all changes in this post are added, the reduced spawn sizes would probably reduce list Canopics per run by 1-2 per person, which is fine]
(8) Flat % increase to Canopic drops for P2 and Hard-Mode
Mentioned earlier, P1 (Easy) is way too appealing in terms of maximising Canopic rates with low risk. P2 and Hard-mode need to have much greater drop rates to justify their added length/difficulty.
I don't know exactly what number this should be though, and when mixed with other changes above it is hard to judge accurately. I'd be open to discussion from other Limbo veterans to suggest a number for this one... but it should be a lot higher than P1/Easy-Mode.
-----
SUMMARY
Sabregirl's Twitch showed a 10-man Limbo PUG, which took ~2.5 hrs and had ~200 deaths total. IIRC the rewards per player were ~6 Canopics each (12% of an XR), and presumably something like 550k XP.
Following the suggestions listed above, these rewards would rise to ~10 Canopics (33% of an XR) and XP closer to the 2.2 million mark - certainly a more appropriate reward for the time/effort required, and reducing the difficulty would also make it a bit faster and less harsh in terms of deaths.
Is this enough to totally 'fix' the run? Definitely not. But I think that it would be a good start, and hopefully act as a catalyst to boost player interest in the run first. Integrate the changes, then wait a few months and see what happens?
The clear issue today is that almost 6 months post-release, most players have barely touched Limbo. I certainly feel that the lack of interest is a slap in the face to the hours volunteered by Funky/Acaos, especially after years of 'in three days' comments; it's impossible to deny that there is an obvious mismatch between pre-release and post-release levels of interest.
I don't really see it as a low server population issue (though overall low population will always mean overall less runs) - to my eye, the server has been much more active this year than last year, and I would argue that the Limbo patch has stimulated endgame activity significantly for every run EXCEPT Limbo. Case in point, these days HG has only one active 'endgame guild' doing scheduled runs, but their focus seems to be on Abyss cycles despite Limbo having never been completed.
From my observations as a player, I think that there are three main reasons why Limbo has not captured the interest of server's endgame population:
(a) The runs are too difficult for most players to enjoy
Most attention has been on P1-Easy, which is the easiest Limbo run by far. Even so, the difficulty of this run seems to have blown away all but the strongest of players, while Hard mode is so difficult that completing isn't viable most of the time.
Right now, the runs are in a state of "no one does Hard mode, the best players do Easy mode, good players do Abyss", and I think the runs should be scaled down to turn it into "the best players do Hard mode, good players do Easy mode".
(b) The runs don't feel rewarding enough
An issue I (prematurely) raised, but in hindsight it was still on the mark. The run doesn't *feel* rewarding, with the carrot of XRs being simply too small and too far away to be appealing. This also intertwines with (a), because many players who struggle with the area don't feel the incentive to practice and learn the run - to most people, I think XRs feel like way too much trouble to acquire so they just accept not bothering with them.
(c) For the few Limbo-veterans, there is little incentive to do anything that ISN'T a 5-toon P1 (Easy) run.
I've played Limbo more than anyone except Raj, but at this stage I've mostly lost interest in the area. In theory there are four runs available (P1/P2 with Easy/Hard modes), but the harder modes take a lot longer to finish. Since there is no tagging bonus for Limbo, the only real goal is Canopics (and thus XRs), and all four runs have comparable rates of Canopics/hour despite the difficulty scaling up exponentially. Due to Limbo's dynamic spawning system (an idea which I *love* in theory, but the execution needs tweaking), a 10-toon party is not much faster than a 5-toon party but the level of Canopic-drop scaling means that 5-toon parties earn significantly more Canopics per player.
In short, 5-toon P1 (Easy) runs yield the highest Canopic rates with the lowest risk, making anything else extremely uneconomical.
-----
In terms of 'fixing' the run, one obvious issue is developer availability. I have a huge amount of respect for Funky and Acaos' personal time and the volunteer work they dedicate to the server, so I think the ideal solution is to focus on 'high-yield' changes; ones that would boost interest in the area while requiring relatively low amounts of dev-work, such as tweaking drop-rates/areas that are already in the game.
Some suggestions that I have come up with in regards to the three issues I raised above - I'm sure that the dev staff have already thought of some similar ideas, but I'll just post them anyway.
MAKE THE RUNS EASIER:
(1) Add 'Learner Mode'
Introduce an option which has NO Paragon mobs, but no Canopics outside of the ones dropping from bosses.
The run would not be very profitable, but serves a good purpose by easing players to the run and letting them learn the critters and required strategies in a safer environment.
(2) Reduce spawn sizes in all modes
Huge spawn sizes are the main reason the run is so difficult - IMO the mobs themselves are at a good place, but it's easy to get overwhelmed (especially during double spawns). The spawn sizes in Hard mode get absolutely HUGE which makes the run inappropriately difficult and unappealing.
Pulling a number out of my head, I would trial something like a ~15% reduction in spawn-sizes for Normal mode, and a ~25% reduction for Hard point.
(3) Divide Part 2 into two halves (ie: Part 2 and 3)
Part 2 is extremely difficult, and is time-consuming and very harsh on rests - it's not easy organising a group to get it done. A large source of difficulty is simply the limited number of rests. 10 charges in Limbo is an average of 5 rests per run (minimum of 4 rests if you roll poorly). Think P1's 4 maps + Boss was tough on rest counts? P2's first 4 maps + Mini-boss are orders are magnitude harder than P1... and then there's an extra 2 maps + final Boss attached afterwards.
Separate the run into P2 (Maps 1/2/4 with Guardian of the Stone as a boss) and Part 3 (Maps 3/5/6 with Ygorl/Ssendem as boss); make entry into P2/P3 set your Planar Ring to 8 charges, meaning you have an average of 4 rests (minimum of 3) for 3 maps, a comparable level of rest-constraint to P1.
(4) Make Layer Penalties scale through each part
An easy way to make the runs a little more forgiving. Instead of having Layer 9 penalties for all of Limbo, scale them up for each section.
Following on from Suggestion (3), perhaps Layer 5/7/9 penalties for Parts 1/2/3 respectively might be appropriate?
MAKE THE RUNS MORE REWARDING:
(5) Reduce Canopic-prices of XRs
This would probably be the single biggest change to make the area more attractive. XRs are the main appeal for the run, but they are damn slow to acquire - it's very discouraging to finish a slog of a run and think "cool, I just need to do that 7-8 more times to get my first item!".
I think on paper the belief was that getting a single XR would result in a decent power boost (and thus the intention was for them to be very scarce), but in practice the average XR is not that great compared to good BURs. I've bought more XRs than anyone else on the server and they really are a gamble. I've become a convert to Funky's 'gradual change' model, so I think trialling a moderate reduction of XR prices for a few months might be helpful.
Suggestion: Reduce Canopic prices for XRs by 40% (ie: 30 canopics for 1 random XR, 150 canopics for 1 random XR of a specific type)
(6) Boost experience (and gold) rewards in Limbo by a LOT
One of the 'side benefits' of doing any run. It's well known that the experience required in Paragon levels gets ridiculously high (eg: the difference between Level 65 and Level 80 is ~100 million XP). It is logical and satisfying for level-appropriate runs to give better XP than lower level runs. You could make the argument that OPTIMIZED farming of weaker opponents (ie: memorising triggers + using optimal routes/techniques for killing the mobs speedrun style) could give comparable XP rates to 'sloppy yet successful' farming of level-appropriate opponents.
At the moment, Limbo does NOT follow this trend. The entire P1 (Easy) yields ~400-550k XP depending on party size, typically ending at 250-350k XP per hour. Compare this to shallow Hell runs, which yield ~600k a piece (I regularly break the 1 million XP per hour mark when soloing) despite being much shorter and much easier.
Making the area very attractive as an 'XP farming ground' also has the side-advantage of encouraging players not to use Level 80 toons.
The P1 gold piles drop 1.2 billion gold total, which is less than an Abyss P3.
Suggestion: Add an (at least) 4x multiplier to Limbo XP, to make typical XP/run closer to the 1 million/hour mark. Gold is a bit harder to pick a number for, but I think it should definitely be a fair bit higher than the Abyss.
INCENTIVIZE LARGER PARTIES AND THE HARDER MODES:
(7) Greater scaling on Canopic drops with increased party size and demi-count
The concept of scaling spawn sizes to the party size is a good idea because it makes completing the run with smaller parties viable (great for lower server populations) without making it a roflstomp for big parties. It also discourages the use of leecher bots, since any bot that isn't actively played will make the run significantly harder due to increased spawn sizes. Large demi-counts also increase the difficulty of the run greatly, but this doesn't appear to have a large impact on Canopic drops.
I mentioned it briefly at the start, but the issue is that the current amount of scaling heavily favours doing the run with a small group (though it must be said that there is still *some* degree of scaling). Example numbers of often-seen rewards are:
5-toon party = ~9 per person
8-toon party = ~7 per person
10-toon party = ~6 per person
IMO the entire model should be adjusted so that large parties gain *more* Canopics than small parties. This creates an incentive for larger parties (encourages inclusiveness, a highlighted issue for the last few years), and as stated above the fact that larger parties aren't much faster + botting is inappropriate for Limbo means there is little potential for abuse with this sort of model.
Suggested numbers:
5-toon party = ~9 per person
8-toon party = ~10 per person
10-toon party = ~11 per person
[If all changes in this post are added, the reduced spawn sizes would probably reduce list Canopics per run by 1-2 per person, which is fine]
(8) Flat % increase to Canopic drops for P2 and Hard-Mode
Mentioned earlier, P1 (Easy) is way too appealing in terms of maximising Canopic rates with low risk. P2 and Hard-mode need to have much greater drop rates to justify their added length/difficulty.
I don't know exactly what number this should be though, and when mixed with other changes above it is hard to judge accurately. I'd be open to discussion from other Limbo veterans to suggest a number for this one... but it should be a lot higher than P1/Easy-Mode.
-----
SUMMARY
Sabregirl's Twitch showed a 10-man Limbo PUG, which took ~2.5 hrs and had ~200 deaths total. IIRC the rewards per player were ~6 Canopics each (12% of an XR), and presumably something like 550k XP.
Following the suggestions listed above, these rewards would rise to ~10 Canopics (33% of an XR) and XP closer to the 2.2 million mark - certainly a more appropriate reward for the time/effort required, and reducing the difficulty would also make it a bit faster and less harsh in terms of deaths.
Is this enough to totally 'fix' the run? Definitely not. But I think that it would be a good start, and hopefully act as a catalyst to boost player interest in the run first. Integrate the changes, then wait a few months and see what happens?