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Post by jcp on Dec 24, 2010 17:12:50 GMT
Thanks!
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Post by fallenwizard on Aug 28, 2011 13:15:29 GMT
I was wondering if this could be unsticked/moved to some archive location. I dont know about others but I feel this topic quite bad advices/info for what builds should have atm. I've no idea what the server was 5 years ago when this topic was started, but as for this date i'd disagree with most input it has and being said, can give bad info for new players.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Aug 28, 2011 13:24:26 GMT
Having just read the OP myself, don't think I ever read this before, I'd have to agree.
HG now is just too different.
Cata
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Aug 28, 2011 13:52:25 GMT
Ok I have taken the OP and modified it to make it look more how I think it should be looking right now with most I think of the latest changes taken into account. Let me know what ya'll think: Stats:Basically you want to max your primary offensive stat and then meet minimum requirements on other stats, then try to put as many points as you can in Con and Int. The reason for this is made clear later. Dex Builds:Leave Str at 6 or 8. The feats and few extra points of damage are not worth losing dex or con over, which keeps you alive. However I will say that once you become more experienced with builds you can play around with upping the Str, Uni Tanks are just one example of where this works very nicely. Str builds:Leave Dex at 6 or 8, unless you need WM or DD. However I will say that once you become more experienced with builds you can play around with upping the Dex, Uni Tanks are just one example of where this works very nicely. Monk Builds:If you re building a Fist Based Monk you are going to want the highest AB Possible and therefore Wisdom is going to be an important stat for you. Wisdom Bonus of 16 gives you a +16 EB on your gloves. Also Pure Monks will get Keen and an extra Surviveability Feat than non pure. I meantion this because it is something you will need to take into account if building a Splash Fist Monk. The Pro's and Con's are something you will need to look carefully at to see if it is worth it. Monk Weapon Builds: Unless you are making a Intuitive Attack Monk then Wisdom is going to be of a far lower priority. Since you are in Robes you will want Wis or Dex on a Str Based character to be higher since you will want the AC Help, but my personal choice would be to take extra Dex than Wisdom for those checks in Hell. Also Con is something you will want to be taking a look at. Alot of players will tell you 14 Con is by far the minimum. I say you want at least 12. Higher is better obviously but if you are struggling for Stat Points then 12 Con for most builds (In fact a Con Based Pariah is the only exception I can think of) is perfectly fine.. Casters:Casters should always Max their primary Stat then up their Int to at least 14, after which you should up your Con, in that order in my opinion. You will want the Skills and extra HP. Skills listed in order of usefulness:You will need around 14 Int on most builds to be able to max all the Skills you want. Tank List- Tumble (For that all important AC)
- Discipline (To stop armour and robes being destroyed)
- Listen (If a tank or using touch based attacks?) (For for gaining the Offensive benefits of Blindfight and for reducing Conceal on creatures)
- Hide (For upping the amount of Conceal you are given by spells such as Mass Camo)
- Parry (For those without their own Crit Immune)
- Concentration (To resist those nifty little insta kill checks in certain parts of the mod, although maximising for Tanks is not a priority, I would recomend at least 30, and other checks like Taunt)
- Perform (If a bard)
- Taunt (Useful for breaking GS and lowering AC, will need the full 63 ranks to affect casters)
- Persuade (Usefull for lowering SR of Mobs)
- Bluff (Usefull for lowering AB)
- Open lock/disable traps/search (If a rogue or assassin with a rogue level.)
- Animal empathy (If a Druid/Ranger/Shifter)
- Heal (if Divine Slinger/Cleric/Druid/Bard)
- UMD (you only need 33 for scrolls, will need a little more if your charisma is under 10. If you have spare skills points feel free to max it.)
- Pickpocket (Dexers only need 10-20 depending on what kind of shield they use, str builds using full plate/tower will need the full 43.)
Caster List- Lore (Lore will Boost the Power of Casters Damage Spells, also you need about 50 to ID level 40 items, some illithid gear and most URs need about 60.)
- Concentration (This will help prevent spells being disrupted during Combat)
- Parry (For those without their own Crit Immune)
- Tumble (For that all important AC)
- Perform (If a bard)
- Spellcfraft (For Greater Ruin)
- Taunt (Useful for breaking GS and lowering AC, will need the full 63 ranks to affect casters)
- Persuade (Usefull for lowering SR of Mobs)
- Bluff (Usefull for lowering AB)
- Animal empathy (If a Druid/Ranger/Shifter)
- Heal (if Divine Slinger/Cleric/Druid/Bard)
- UMD (you only need 33 for scrolls, will need a little more if your charisma is under 10. If you have spare skills points feel free to max it.)
- Pickpocket (Dexers only need 10-20 depending on what kind of shield they use, str builds using full plate/tower will need the full 43.)
Feats:Melee/AA builds:- Weapon Focus
- Greater Weapon Focus
- Epic Weapon Focus
- Epic Prowess
- Legendary Weapon Focus
- Improved Critical
- Power Critical
- Superior Critical
- Rapid Shot (for AA's/Slingers)
- Overwhelming Critical (If you can fit it in)
- Devastating Critical (If you can fit it in)
- Self Conceal 1-5 (Only if you have the Feats to spare although this is somewhat more important for Rogues than anything else, still useful for other classes though)
Dex Builds:- Great Fort+Leg Fort (if fort is under 52 at level 40)
- Epic Will ( if will is under 48 at level 40)
Str Builds:- Great Fort+Leg Fort (if fort is under 52 at level 40
- Epic Will ( if will is under 48 at level 40
- Epic Reflex (if reflex is under 52 at level 40
WM's:- Power Attack/Improved Power Attack
- Knockdown/Improved Knockdown
- Disarm/Improved Disarm
All Casters:- Regular-Legendary Spell Penetration
- Regular-Legendary Spell Focus of your choice.
I'm not going to go into what spell focuses are best here as that is covered well and truly in various posts and on numerous builds all over the place and repeating the old arguments here wouldn't serve much purpose.
- Extend Spell
- Silent spell
- Empower Spell
- Maximise Spell
Clerics:Divine Spell Focus Regular to Legandary for Gate Spell Wizard/Sorceror:Transmutation Epic Regular - Epic at least Rogues:Epic Skill Focus Disable Trap/Search Common Mistakes:Cleave, Great Cleave, etc. (Just not worth the stiff requirements for something of questionable worth. Even cleave can be a hazard in areas with kickback monsters.) However if you want Overwhelming/Devastating Critical on your build, and if playing a Tank I'd recomend getting it then ignore the above as they are requirements for OC/DC, just be aware of the damage they can cause when hitting mobs that cause Personal and Party KB and remember playing a Tank isn't necessarily just about pointing at a mob and clicking on it then waiting for it to die Circle Kick is bugged and should be avoided at all costs. Whirlwind Attack has it's problems, however in my opinion can still be useful, especially taking into consideration the COT and Monk changes to it. Just be warned, if you are going to go the Whirlwind Attack Route then if you miss everything in the spawn it will bug your character and you will need a relog to fix it. Not really worth it in this case. BAB mishaps: When mixing 3/4 BAB classes (rogue/monk etc.) with full BAB classes (fighter/paladin/ranger etc.) pre-epic, always try to take the 3/4 BAB classes in groups of 4. For example, a 8 rogue/12 fighter would have 1 more AB than a 9 rogue/11 fighter. Cata
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Post by Balduvard on Aug 28, 2011 14:42:28 GMT
Other desired combat feats are GWF, LWF, Power Critical, and Superior Critical. I would disagree on the importance of concentration as a non-caster; I mostly see it causing disabling effects rather than instakills and it doesn't need to be maxed out in order to counter the former. I would also add Parry to the list if you have the skill points to invest in it (especially as a dexer), as there are a lot of benefits to having it, including resistance to some disabling and instakills (mostly in the Abyss). Dex builds, if they have feats to spare, may want to incorporate Self Concealment I-V (especially rogues, who get an innate bonus on top dependent on their hide skill, giving them amazing undispellable defense). Also, for rogues, ESF: Disable Trap is not required if your intelligence is high enough, which for most rogues it usually is in order to get the maximum +AB bonus from Opportunist (base 18). Refer to Rogue Skills. Similarly, ESF: Search is not required (you can get away with SF: Search, which can be found on the Embroidered augment). You may need the ESF feats with Open Subraces and/or non-demi characters however, if they cannot reach the above referenced ability requirements.
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Post by Vichya on Aug 28, 2011 14:56:29 GMT
I disagree on the stats for dex/str builds. Leaving the lower stat at 6 or 8 just ensures that you will get KDed by every possible mob in the game.
I would also change the save feats you listed, include the legendary feats and their requirements, e.f. Great Fortitude for Legendary Fortitude.
Silent Spell is hardly a requirement for casters, it's nice to have but I wouldn't take it if I already had Extend or Still Spell. On the other hand for mages Empower/Maximize is quite useful since it enables you to cast many of the spells you will use at different levels.
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Post by chirality on Aug 28, 2011 17:06:43 GMT
I think it would be important for new players (both to HG and/or NWN in general) to understand that the true power of metamagic feats often lies not simply in the metamagic effect, but also the immensely improved versatility added. I barely skimmed through the rest of the recent posts (so I apologize if this is a bit off-topic now ) but Vichya's comment made me think of this. Especially in HG where casters (along with everything else ) is so high-powered compared to what a new player may have known in "normal" NWN or D&D, it makes a huge difference to have the ability to cast far more of the right spell(s) for the situation by using metamagic'd versions. I for one have been a D&D and then NWN player for much of my life and although I understood the inherent flexibility in being able to have more casts of "that" spell by using metamagic versions, it was simply not on my radar as far as being overly useful. I definitely believe that this is not the case on HG, and I think the sooner a new caster player understands this, the better. All that said--now I've scrolled back through the posts on this page again and here are my thoughts: Cata, I think you've done a great job at re-doing the OP here. I do tend to agree with both Balduvard and Vichya's comments, however. As far as the Str/Dex ability check point goes, perhaps just add in a line warning about KD checks and such--I have seen people argue both sides, but I think it's more important for a new player to just be aware of the hazard than to be pointed one way or the other. I'm sure many would say that 8 Dex or Str is fine, and many would disagree--but new players just need to be warned, and they can draw their own conclusions in time. I think the wording in some places could be changed a bit. For example, although overall the skill list is obviously spot-on, I think the "in order of usefulness" part may be a bit misleading...sure, in general Tumble is more important than Discipline, but I think there are some builds and build types that would find Discipline far more useful than a few extra points of AC. Also, I notice that despite having AE and Heal higher up on the list, the similarly highly-specialized caster skill Lore is at the dead bottom--and no mention is made of the custom Lore spell damage boost. If anything, perhaps two separate lists could be made: one for casters and one for tanks. Or simply add some additional text explaining some of the finer points. Overall, though, I would agree that, for example, AE, Heal, and UMD are more important than Lore. Something else that parallels my comments about metamagic feats would be regarding UMD: I think many new players, even if familiar with NWN or D&D, likely would underestimate the extreme usefulness and power of UMD here on HG, given the importance of a handful of spells/effects and therefore scrolls/potions of those spells--GS and BBoD come to mind here. New players should understand that (for example) if they are trying to solo, UMD can drastically improve their survivability and performance, which only increases as they progress through the game. To give an example: BBoD scrolls to soak Ruins, or GS for its various uses, can make the difference between many fights being nearly impossible to doable (as everyone here knows already ;D). And this doesn't even touch on some of the other consumables that will make a difference much later on in the game. One last thing I noticed that could be a bit misleading is the fact that while OC and DC (rightly so) are listed as highly important, Cleave and Great Cleave are given as mistakes. Some new players may be confused by this, given that the latter are prerequisites for the former. Perhaps add a note about how for non-Str builds, Cleave and Great Cleave are indeed as you say Cata (risky in many situations, etc.) but that for any build looking to incorporate OC/DC without item-given feats, Cleave and Great Cleave are actually needed. I would also suggest that Whirlwind Attack be added in that section--anyone familiar with NWN probably knows that it's buggy and overall pretty useless, but a new player may find it "cool" sounding and be disappointed after spending all the feats for the tree and discovering that it's just really not that good, and even worse that it is buggy (in my opinion, even the custom HG changes for fighters, SDs, WMs, and CoTs are nice but not really amazing). Well, this turned out to be a lot longer than I expected starting out (once again) so I will stop here. Overall, nice work on re-tooling the OP, Cata; and props to Fallen for noticing and prompting an update.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Aug 28, 2011 20:52:24 GMT
Ok thanks guys. Updated the info based on your comments. How the heck I missed the other Weap Focuses out I don't know. Balduvard - I've left the Rogue stuff in for now since I want this to be workable for newer players to HG as well as old. More experienced players will, I hope, be able to figure that stuff out themselves and your comment pretty much explains it anyway, and newer players may not necessarily have the gear. Vichya - I agree absolutely on the Stats part, however I know a ton of people will dissagree with us both on that, also again this should work with newer players who will more than likely find getting BUR Subraces now more difficult since the new updates make them drop less often, this means we should see more Rare, UR Builds about from them, they may not be able to afford the extra stats. In this case I think it wise to leave that as it is, and hopefully they'll learn to play better in groups and use more party play, such as PT2, etc. Yes 6/8 Str/Dex means alot of KD but it isn't nearly as bad as it sounds. I've a couple of bvuilds myself that utilise this and they do get KD'd but not as much as you'd think. With regards to the Save Feats - That is a good idea and as soon as I get in game and remember to look up the names of the feats I'll change em As for Silent spell, yes, agreed, hardly a requirement, however I would always encourage newer players to take it if they can afford the feat as there are run's where a dead bard can mean no caster power. Silent Spell for newer players who haven't got a Silent Ring or other means of casting while Silenced could make the difference. Yes I know there is a Spell that allows the same thing but you only get so many casts of it and that spell means casting 2 spells at a time to get 1, Silent Spell feat means you cast 1 spell. Chirality - Some nice comments thanks. Seperated the Skills List as you suggested, was a very good idea. As regards the Skill List Order, I have changed it some but left Tumble above Discipline, I think only PM's and RDD's would possibly not be bothered about Tumble, well notwith maxing it anyway. As for other Classes changing Tumble down for Discipline I honstly can't think of a reason why you would put 12ac below Discipline. With good positioning and careful gameplay you can reduce the only effect of Low Discipline, Slagged Gear, to a single run, and that is only on the boss. So not worth it really. I agree UMD is nice when it allows you to cast things like GS from Scrolls, but, you can get GS from other areas of the game and you can get rods that can cast BBOD's, etc and none of those need UMD so imo that is the lowest priority Skill on the list. Cata
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 28, 2011 22:20:48 GMT
Go ahead and make a new post, and I'll sticky it and unsticky this one.
Thanks, Funky
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Aug 29, 2011 0:23:07 GMT
Done and added the posts that follow my updated post as well as they add good points that follow on from it and figured best to keep em all in one place.
Cata
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