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Post by maljin on Mar 4, 2012 15:55:52 GMT
Rebuke is similar to weird. It respects immunity to mind spells which pit fiends have.
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Post by simpetar on Mar 4, 2012 16:16:27 GMT
Simpetar, did they change smite good/evil. I used to only get 1 use per rest or 3 with extra smiting. I ran a "stunner" BG for 2 hell trips (great before rak shapeshifter change). does it now recharge on a timer? From update notes 2011-06-27: I imagine this change was rather unnoticed as few people used vanilla NWN smite, but it had an impact on pally and BG turners I just described: negating turner level penalty for non-clerics using the uses. Yes, destroying something requires two successful checks (turns). And you cannot basically chose when full turner level will apply, so you have to keep a very close eye on the recharge timer. Only stunning / fearing a mob is more forgiving in this regard, but in that case BG +4 charisma bonus will not play big role.
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Post by gandoron on Mar 4, 2012 18:01:39 GMT
actually some BG turners probably take a cleric level for 2 free domains. So this wouldn't help those. Pure probably makes more sense now.
-G
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 0:11:25 GMT
Rebuke is similar to weird. It respects immunity to mind spells which pit fiends have. Fooey.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 5, 2012 22:30:10 GMT
actually some BG turners probably take a cleric level for 2 free domains. So this wouldn't help those. Pure probably makes more sense now. -G I'd say: If BG, make a smiter/turner Pal 10/Bg 30. If Paladin make a pure CHA, Rapier wit turner or a smiter/turner Pal 38/Bg 2. This way you could turn evil mobs and recharge regular smite every minute.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 3:57:33 GMT
actually some BG turners probably take a cleric level for 2 free domains. So this wouldn't help those. Pure probably makes more sense now. -G I'd say: If BG, make a smiter/turner Pal 10/Bg 30. If Paladin make a pure CHA, Rapier wit turner or a smiter/turner Pal 38/Bg 2. This way you could turn evil mobs and recharge regular smite every minute. Make one, I would be interested in the build. I have found it not necessarily easy to take the wisdom you need for planar turning, plus the maxed cha you want for blowing up turns, plus the smiting feats.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 8, 2012 23:11:51 GMT
Right now I'm runing a modified version of "The Palasmiturnerdin", I suppose it will be handy at Ely and hells, without the flaw of losing Greater Smite if it use turn undead 3 times. This build works better nowadays with the Summon buff update and possibility of grabbing domains in paragon levels. Without further delay - the "unholy dog" build (Hound Archon fallen paladin, i.e. Pal 10 Bg 30) (changes from original are underlined):
Initial Base Scores (With Subbie Bonus) - Race: Human: Hound Archon
Str 15 (19) (1 more, dumped from int) Dex 8 Con 12 (14) Int 12 (less 2, as bg don't need parry) *** Can be reduced by 2 if you drop persuade/taunt for another domain Wis 14 (16) Cha 15 (19)
Stat distribution progression Cha+5 (1-20) Wis+9 (24-48) Str+6 (50-60)
Class progression: Pal 10 -> BG 30
Feat choices: 1: Blooded 1: Weapon Focus 3: Divine Might 6: Cleave 9: G-Cleave 12: Impr crit Morningstar 15: Toughness 18: Blind Fight (GMW or move up for exotic proficiency) 21: G-Cha 1 (Charisma is now 25) 23(bonus): G-Smite 2 24: G-Smite 3 26(bonus): G-Smite 4 27: G-Smite 5 29(bonus): G-Smite 6 30: G-Smite 7 32(bonus): G-Smite 8 33: G-Smite 9 35(bonus): EWF 36: Armor Skin 38(bonus):Epic Prowess 39: G-Smite 10 42: LSA tumble 45: OV Crit 48: DEV Crit 51: Planar Turning 54: Domain Powers: Evil 57: LWF 60: G-Str 1 (Or domain powers: Plant/Elemental - if skill is discarded)
Skills (2/base+1/int+1/human =4): Disciple 63 Tumble 60 Hide 5 (10 points) Concentration 30 Craft Armor 20+leftovers Persuade/Taunt 63 (can be dropped for a domain) - Persuade has sinergy with bestow curse
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2012 1:30:24 GMT
Right now I'm runing a modified version of "The Palasmiturnerdin", I suppose it will be handy at Ely and hells, without the flaw of losing Greater Smite if it use turn undead 3 times. This build works better nowadays with the Summon buff update and possibility of grabbing domains in paragon levels. Without further delay - the "unholy dog" build (Hound Archon fallen paladin, i.e. Pal 10 Bg 30) (changes from original are underlined): Initial Base Scores (With Subbie Bonus) - Race: Human: Hound Archon Str 15 (19) (1 more, dumped from int) Dex 8 Con 12 (14) Int 12 (less 2, as bg don't need parry) *** Can be reduced by 2 if you drop persuade/taunt for another domain Wis 14 (16) Cha 15 (19) Stat distribution progression Cha+5 (1-20) Wis+9 (24-48) Str+6 (50-60) Class progression: Pal 10 -> BG 30 Feat choices: 1: Blooded 1: Weapon Focus 3: Divine Might 6: Cleave 9: G-Cleave 12: Impr crit Morningstar 15: Toughness 18: Blind Fight (GMW or move up for exotic proficiency) 21: G-Cha 1 (Charisma is now 25) 23(bonus): G-Smite 2 24: G-Smite 3 26(bonus): G-Smite 4 27: G-Smite 5 29(bonus): G-Smite 6 30: G-Smite 7 32(bonus): G-Smite 8 33: G-Smite 9 35(bonus): EWF 36: Armor Skin 38(bonus):Epic Prowess 39: G-Smite 10 42: LSA tumble 45: OV Crit 48: DEV Crit 51: Planar Turning 54: Domain Powers: Evil57: LWF60: G-Str 1 (Or domain powers: Plant/Elemental - if skill is discarded)Skills (2/base+1/int+1/human =4): Disciple 63 Tumble 60 Hide 5 (10 points) Concentration 30 Craft Armor 20+leftovers Persuade/Taunt 63 (can be dropped for a domain) - Persuade has sinergy with bestow curseThanks for posting this, but I see it still isn't possible to get wis to 25, max out cha, and have enough great smites to be an effective smiter. I don't think its a good idea to take level 0 feats in Legendary or Paragon levels. The cost is (literally) a Legendary or, in this case, a Paragon feat. IMO absolutely not worth barkskin. I see cha left at 25? You will be stunning, but won't be destroying anything. Its good for a tank that wants to stun mobs. IMO a turning cleric with bg splash and maxed cha is more of a tank than a pure divine fighter (any mix of cot/pal/bg) is a turner. Plus it turns much much better than the divine tank, and offers all of the party saving and incredibly powerful epics and possible paragon feats while sacrificing none. Girding offers how much less ac than barkskin? And planar ally offers how many more summons per day than summon epic fiend? I think your build is really nice for someone who wants to tank with turning as an after thought, but if one is looking for a full-powered turner that can also tank some (not THE tank of the party), I think the cc cleric/bg splash is better.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 9, 2012 3:31:38 GMT
Thanks for posting this, but I see it still isn't possible to get wis to 25, max out cha, and have enough great smites to be an effective smiter. Nope, but you can still do nice smite damage with just a couple of great smiting feats I don't think its a good idea to take level 0 feats in Legendary or Paragon levels. The cost is (literally) a Legendary or, in this case, a Paragon feat. IMO absolutely not worth barkskin. Plant domain allows you to turn vemrin (and plants with a gear), including Advespas. BG and Pally don't get domain spells. I see cha left at 25? You will be stunning, but won't be destroying anything. Its good for a tank that wants to stun mobs. Pretty much it. IMO a turning cleric with bg splash and maxed cha is more of a tank than a pure divine fighter (any mix of cot/pal/bg) is a turner. Plus it turns much much better than the divine tank, and offers all of the party saving and incredibly powerful epics and possible paragon feats while sacrificing none. Girding offers how much less ac than barkskin? And planar ally offers how many more summons per day than summon epic fiend? Cleric has much more utility indeed, the idea ofthe thread is how to make a viable BG (and Pal by extension) turner (trying to capitalize on it's strenghts). Cleric's superiority is undisputed. Consider that Paladins and BGs get +4 cha over a cleric, meaning 2 more Destruction DC (-1 if it doesn't have smite good/evil avaliable, which only recharges if pure paladin/bg), they also get great saves. Spells and domains versus Cleric epics aren't related to this topic. Also, Paladins and BGs have better Str checks, due innate +4 str at 60. Well, a tuner cleric can't do all cleric duties and is more vulenarable to stat checks (mostly str) than a divine warrior equivalent. I think your build is really nice for someone who wants to tank with turning as an after thought, but if one is looking for a full-powered turner that can also tank some (not THE tank of the party), I think the cc cleric/bg splash is better. Well, the build wasn't my idea, i just updated it a bit. Regardless of it, I tried to keep the jack of all trades mentality with the BG, he can stun with turn, he can smite, he can summon, he can sneak attack, he can buff with cold/divine and he can debuff SR. A paladin version, (probably full CHA, from base 20-21), could get twice the cha mod form this BG build, with base cha above 50, netting the same smite damage (tough not the timer) with just 1 Greater smite feat and the healthy Aura of Glory (Cha modifier / 2)% immunity to physical damage and (Cha modifier)% immunity to positive damage. Tough a rechargeable Smite Evil with +440 physical damage is a nice, I'm not impressed yet.
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Post by maljin on Mar 9, 2012 18:20:37 GMT
I think overdriver was looking for a build that is utilizing the 4 cha from pally/bg to become a better turner than a pure cleric (e.g. 2 more destruction dc). While you can do that with cleric splash to pick up the two domains, you'd still have the -2 turner levels (= turn power) for almost all of your turns which influences turning dc as well (shown above in this thread).
A pure bg/pally can recharge its smite to reduce the -2 penalty more often and apply his extra cha on more turns. But since pallies and bgs don't get gr wis as bonus feats and have to pick up two more domains as LL feats (if you want to turn the same range of mobs as a pure cleric), they probably (I have never actually tried writing down such a build) won't be able to get max cha anyway, so turning dc will eventually be less than that of a pure cleric with maxed cha.
Your build has everything you "promised" but from what I've gathered in overdrivers response it's not what he was expecting.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 9, 2012 20:03:17 GMT
I think overdriver was looking for a build that is utilizing the 4 cha from pally/bg to become a better turner than a pure cleric (e.g. 2 more destruction dc). While you can do that with cleric splash to pick up the two domains, you'd still have the -2 turner levels (= turn power) for almost all of your turns which influences turning dc as well (shown above in this thread). A pure bg/pally can recharge its smite to reduce the -2 penalty more often and apply his extra cha on more turns. But since pallies and bgs don't get gr wis as bonus feats and have to pick up two more domains as LL feats (if you want to turn the same range of mobs as a pure cleric), they probably (I have never actually tried writing down such a build) won't be able to get max cha anyway, so turning dc will eventually be less than that of a pure cleric with maxed cha. Your build has everything you "promised" but from what I've gathered in overdrivers response it's not what he was expecting. Pally/BG still have more destruction DC (+1 or +2 with smite), regardless of having less turning power. I think I've sketched a CHA Pally turner build, i'll review it and post later.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 9, 2012 20:17:00 GMT
Edit: good idea to improve - paragon progression and skill parry - remeber there are 5 turner domains Allignment, Elemental, Plant, Sun and Destruction
Here's the first sketch (considering level 60 naked): Half-Elf Pharlan - Pal 38 Bg 2
Str 9 +4/sub +2/sub +4/paladin +1/smite = 20 Dex 8 Con 8 Int 10 Wis 17 +4/sub Cha 18 +4/sub +4/paladin +20/level +8/feat = 54 (at 60, without arty, i.e. 2 points over a cleric)
Pre-epic feats Divine might (racial bonus) WF: Rapier Rapier Wit Power Attack Cleave Divine shield Extra smiting Improved critical OR Toughness
Epic: Great Wis 4 Great Cha+3
Paladin Bonus feats EWF Armor Skin Epic Prowess Planar Turuning Great Smiting 1-2
Legendary feats: Great Cha+5 (total 8) Good/Evil domain Choice domain
Paragon Feats: Domain 3/5 Domain 4/5 Domain 5/5 Legendary Spel penetration (sinergy with destruction) Great Cha +2
AB: 45+28+4+20 = 97 (at 60, with +12 and no arty)
Skills (3): Disciple 63 Parry 63 Concentration 30 Craft Armor 33 (Tumble 30 with paragon levels)
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Post by desocupado on Mar 9, 2012 20:26:01 GMT
Here's the first sketch (considering level 60 naked): Half-Elf Pharlan - Pal 38 Bg 2 Str 9 +4/sub +2/sub +4/paladin +1/smite = 20 Dex 8 ...... With half celestial, you have to drop BG, but you you get 2 feats in the place of Great Wis: either Great CHA+2 or 2 domains.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2012 2:52:33 GMT
Nice work on that build, ending cha 74 at 80 with arty and +16 gear. I have to get around to posting mine which is much like yours but with cleric levels and the same ending cha.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 10, 2012 4:24:05 GMT
Nice work on that build, ending cha 74 at 80 with arty and +16 gear. I have to get around to posting mine which is much like yours but with cleric levels and the same ending cha. I'm not sure at the exact number, but this is the maximun attainable Cha, considering 2 great cha at paragon levels. see bellow Anyway, i'm against spalshing Cleric as it destroy rechargeable full turning. But it made sense before paragon levels update. Ok calculated the exact number for level 80: 54 +2/feat +2/arty +4/demi +2/paralevels +16/gear = 80 (+35 mod)
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