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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 1, 2020 5:06:34 GMT
Ok, so I looked into this. The best I can do is an item that swaps to a weapon type based on the first weapon you use it on. The new weapon would bind to your character, and have an an instant ability (ala SD shadowstep) that could target another weapon and swap to its properties, both temporary and permanent. Basically like the AA bow, but without actually absorbing the weapon. This would allow instantaneous swapping of damage types, and require only two clicks.
Does this sound like a workable solution?
Funky
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Post by dopplegang on Mar 1, 2020 6:29:30 GMT
Interesting an instant swap tank
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Post by chirality on Mar 1, 2020 6:56:12 GMT
need some time to think on this, it's definitely unexpected and the implications are vast.
atm are you thinking of this a barb SS "solution" only? or would this be a global tank update? (i assume this is barb/SS-centric but the idea of tanks being able to do this is extremely interesting)
i'm not sure exactly what to think of this atm, although there's no question that it should/would be a big QoL improvement for tanks (and casters, if I'm going to get a bit ahead of myself here and posit that this implementation could arrive hand-in-hand with some kind of weapbuff change--but regardless).
I don't like the idea of giving this only to barbs as some sort of penance for having a clumsy and unfriendly SS mechanism (not sure if that was implied or not, but if it was, that's my feedback). imo that would be a mistake. give this to all tanks.
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Post by Methes on Mar 1, 2020 11:04:02 GMT
Giving this to tanks in general would be huge! The 100% conceal antiexploit seems like necessary evil to me but this would be epic! Would it require to open inventory each time or would it be possible to save and load the 'token' weapons via a command, making it hotbar friendly?
While you're at it, could also make it so that casters cast all weapon buffs on this weapon only and they are automatically applied to the corresponding damage type on 'token' weapons.
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Post by woqued on Mar 1, 2020 11:10:55 GMT
It would be pretty difficult to utilize ingame, as you can't target weapons on a bar - meaning you would have to have your inventory open, use binded key for the swapper item and target the correct weapon in the inventory. It would probably be a little clunky to get used to, but it would increase the power of players utilizing it correctly. Not sure it would be a gameplay enjoyment upgrade, but it would be a power upgrade. Specifically for barbarians it would be both I think, others would at times probably feel obligated to go through the process because its better than losing attacks due to weaponswap even on a non-barb.
There's also the issue that our weapons get "rebuffed" by casters when that specific weapon hits stuff. If you never hit stuff with the other weapons, buffs will run out and require more frequent rebuffing by partymates.
If it's a timeconsuming implementation, I'm not sure it's for the better overall or worth the zots. It would be a nice addition to the Shapestrong token for Barbarians specially - and if it ends up being fun after the Barbarian guinea pig trial, then could be implemented modwide?
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Post by chirality on Mar 1, 2020 16:24:45 GMT
in regard to the implementation itself: so does this mean indeed it would only function as woki described? if that's the case then yeah it would be quite a hassle in and of itself to use mid-combat. but maybe there's a way to make it easier? what if you had a 3rd layer in here, like ok you also give the tank some epic stones, now these could store variables that record a weapons stats? then you could first absorb a weapon with the stone, then the stone would be far easier to deal with then a weapon; what i mean is then once the runestone is holding the (real) weapon, the AAbowWeapon could target the runestones to morph into the diff weaps? then since we're working no longer with targeting weapons on quickbars, you could just slot the runestones and it could be a 1click action w/out needing inventory open?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 1, 2020 17:35:45 GMT
This would only be for barbarians. It's way too messy with item buffs. And yes, woqued understood what I was suggesting.
Funky
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Post by drunkenboastor on Mar 1, 2020 19:26:07 GMT
There's also the issue that our weapons get "rebuffed" by casters when that specific weapon hits stuff. If you never hit stuff with the other weapons, buffs will run out and require more frequent rebuffing by partymates. It does not work that way. When a weapon buff is auto recast, the duration of the buff is not being increased, it is being supported. If the buff is not supported, the remaining duration of the weapon buff is decreased.
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Post by woqued on Mar 1, 2020 21:25:49 GMT
There's also the issue that our weapons get "rebuffed" by casters when that specific weapon hits stuff. If you never hit stuff with the other weapons, buffs will run out and require more frequent rebuffing by partymates. It does not work that way. When a weapon buff is auto recast, the duration of the buff is not being increased, it is being supported. If the buff is not supported, the remaining duration of the weapon buff is decreased. Ah, my mistake. I coulda sworn i lost buffs on weapons I hadn't used yet kept on stuff I kept using. Good to know it was all in my head.
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Post by gladi8or on Mar 1, 2020 23:03:37 GMT
I'm really intrigued by this and anxious to try it. I thought the easiest thing to do was drop ss altogether and just make barbarians permanently large size at x levels of barbarian. Instead of getting the ss token, just get the new perminent size.
Looking forward to testing it out.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 2, 2020 0:34:49 GMT
I'm really intrigued by this and anxious to try it. I thought the easiest thing to do was drop ss altogether and just make barbarians permanently large size at x levels of barbarian. Instead of getting the ss token, just get the new perminent size. Looking forward to testing it out. If we did that they would both a) take and ac hit and b) lose the plugin-coded oversize damage bonus, making it nigh pointless. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 2, 2020 0:36:39 GMT
Incidentally, the option barbs already have is to shift up to large, equip the new weapon, then deshift. My original idea was to automate that, but I can't make any of it fast, at least not with plugin alterations which I cannot do. So, they would be stuck with the same alternative they already have, only automated to be slightly (but not much at all) faster.
Funky
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Post by chirality on Mar 2, 2020 5:37:37 GMT
the plugin-coded oversize damage bonus can you elaborate? what does this refer to? __________ i think this is best left as-is for now. Until/unless there's a way to truly make it smooth and workable, I don't think it's a great use of time to work more on SS. I think barbarian still offers a ton of flexibility (as the only class to have the option to swap between full 2h% damage, partial 2h% damage, and 1h tankmode), and I think that even though it's a huge hassle to change size again to swap weaps--I've said it before in barb/SS threads I think, but hey, let's be honest, the behavior we're complaining about interfering with mid-run fun (swapping weapons a size too large to wield without changing size all over again) is kind of taking advantage of something that wasn't truly intended originally. i have a wall i copypasted but in essence, I am not fond of the idea of anything like this done for barbarians. imo the AABow-ification of melee weaps if/when possible, should be given to all tanks; in the meantime it would not serve as an effective balancing stopgap measure (let alone long-term solution) for barbarians.
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Post by chirality on Mar 2, 2020 5:55:03 GMT
actually, to be completely honest, my suggestion for barbs is pretty simple:
--remove SS. yes, delete it (as-is*). i'll spare the textwall explanation for when asked.
--redo thundering rage. allow a toggle to turn on or off the sonic damage.
seriously, i'm looking at this from issues first. what is the problem with barbarian? some of its coolest abilities don't play well with others; to be specific, both thundering rage and shapestrong rage provide a direct clash with weapon buffs and swapping weapons, leading to a situation where (for X many years now at least) barbarians look less and less fondly upon both these class features, or are constantly trying to "make them work" to their own detracted enjoyment.
let's be honest as well, i think SS originally/used to have some value for letting you wield bigger weaps but after weap update and 2h and all the other giant list of changes since SS was invented, i don't think SS holds nearly as much attraction nowadays in terms of letting you pick bigger weaps. atm bigger definitely doesn't mean better; it rarely/barely did back then, but now hellno.
so yeah, get rid of it. Shapestrong could be implemented in several other ways (that's even including keeping the exact name/theme/etc), such as providing bonuses to various stats, bonus damage, hell nearly anything, that could still line up with "barb gets bigger in rage rawr!" -simulate 2h% when not 2hing?? cuz ur bigger now? just delete SS and give barbs 20% dmg bonus when 1hing, 20% extra when 2hing (to give them full 40% when 2hing just like anyone else) -increase Str (or, also Con) by +4, stacking with +16s, allowing even higher peak Str buffed than normal, up to +20 cap? ---i know i know, but hey it'll happen eventually anyway -+20nat AC, added 5/- phys DR? -+bonus KD checks? come on this would be a nobrainer right? -i dunno you get the point
then look, all of a sudden we have a barbarian that actually isn't broken at all and can smoothly enjoy endgame runs just the same as any other tank, without worrying about --- gasp -- *anything*
anyway, yeah i know it's rough to say just delete this classic time-honored HG trademark custom thing, but I think it's pretty bad and needs to be laid to rest. just being frank.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 2, 2020 8:30:05 GMT
the plugin-coded oversize damage bonus can you elaborate? what does this refer to? The plugin-based bonus they get for using a weapon too large for them when medium-sized. This is not correct. We've actually gone out of our way to create this damage bonus. Funky
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