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Post by woqued on Mar 2, 2020 12:45:51 GMT
Alright, so I don't know what's up with glads barb, but my barb definitely isn't being forced to go down to medium size upon changing weapon when shaped. Can swap just fine. In that case I have a potential suggestion:
If possible to implement like this, you could tie the current bonuses to
Instead of while medium and using shield and a large weapon gain bonuses, we move to - While raging - While using a shield ---> Gain 20% damage multiplier or retain offhand attacks if using dualwep.
No hassle, no problem. Same as every other tank, to the effect that was intended for barbs to have.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 2, 2020 16:08:31 GMT
Alright, so I don't know what's up with glads barb, but my barb definitely isn't being forced to go down to medium size upon changing weapon when shaped. Can swap just fine. That's not his problem. His problem is that he is deshifting to medium to get an improved ac and a 20% oversized damage bonus. When you do this, and you try to swap to another oversize weapon, the engine automatically first unequips your current weapon (go figure), and then your shield, before equipping your new weapon; because you are currently not the proper size to take advantage of it. The way around this is to shift to large before the swap, swap, and shift back to medium. He's complaining about this being cumbersome. If you were not aware of this bonus, it's likely because it's insufficiently documented - a problem I'm hoping to rectify now that I can access the dev environment we use for doccing. Funky
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Post by chirality on Mar 2, 2020 16:32:50 GMT
His problem is that he is deshifting to medium to get an improved ac and a 20% oversized damage bonus. When you do this, and you try to swap to another oversize weapon, the engine automatically first unequips your current weapon (go figure), and then your shield, before equipping your new weapon; because you are currently not the proper size to take advantage of it. The way around this is to shift to large before the swap, swap, and shift back to medium. He's complaining about this being cumbersome. right...erm, not to be dense but yes? it seems like you are surprised by glad finding this cumbersome, but yeah, everyone found it cumbersome and that's what the thread is about. above i merely tried to say essentially this response (I guess I mangled it completely but the above quote is pretty much all I meant to say @ this entire topic: it's extremely cumbersome for us and I think it should be deleted, but as long as it's here, that's just how it will work so people need to understand it and accept it or just don't use it whatever, but really the crux is that it's a high investment in zots (even higher than I thought, apparently) yielding a bonus that people find nearly too awkward to even take advantage of. If you were not aware of this bonus, it's likely because it's insufficiently documented - a problem I'm hoping to rectify now that I can access the dev environment we use for doccing. Funky ok, I thought it was intended to allow barbs to have a shield +oversized weapon, or 2h extra oversized (small w/ large, medium w/ huge) weap, not how we use it, which is to 2h a bigger sized weapon + shield. sorry then, but I'm still unclear on what this plugin is and how it relates to the 2h% buff or not. I actually have no idea what that means, what the this bonus and how is it determined? My mistake then, I wasn't aware that SS was actually giving its own damage bonus specifically for that reason. I suppose in that case it's a shame to have went out of your way since the mechanism so so broken. I'm not trying to troll, I'm just saying.
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Post by woqued on Mar 2, 2020 16:54:59 GMT
Alright, so I don't know what's up with glads barb, but my barb definitely isn't being forced to go down to medium size upon changing weapon when shaped. Can swap just fine. That's not his problem. His problem is that he is deshifting to medium to get an improved ac and a 20% oversized damage bonus. When you do this, and you try to swap to another oversize weapon, the engine automatically first unequips your current weapon (go figure), and then your shield, before equipping your new weapon; because you are currently not the proper size to take advantage of it. The way around this is to shift to large before the swap, swap, and shift back to medium. He's complaining about this being cumbersome. If you were not aware of this bonus, it's likely because it's insufficiently documented - a problem I'm hoping to rectify now that I can access the dev environment we use for doccing. Funky That was not what he was saying in the initial post. He said " When playing barbarians who are using large weapons and a shield, when you swap a weapon, you automatically become a medium sized character." implying he wanted to stay Large at all times and "doesn't know why anyone would do that willingly" implying he cared less about the 20% bonus and more about being able to use his weapon of choice with his shield and being able to swap at will. Perhaps I misunderstood then. I am well aware of the bonus, and went about it differently on suggesting a way to enable utilizing it without it being so cumbersome. Barb was my first character on the server and I never understood *why* it was like this, but I utilized the mechanic just fine until it became too irritating to ever touch again (my 80 barb is still alive, just didn't see play towards the end even when I wasn't on a hiatus). It might be documented poorly too though, not sure. My source as a newbie was a build guide.
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Post by Methes on Mar 2, 2020 18:01:28 GMT
So the two scenarios I understand are: 1) Create a special kind of weapon for barbarians that works *slightly* less clunky than the way it is now (opening inventory, using item special power - weapon or command targeter - on a weapon, closing inventory) for the cost of probably high dev time that would either not work that well with buffs and slagging mechanics, or would require additional hacks in those areas adding code clutter and making future rewrites more difficult. 2) Make Shapestrong shape have 20% damage bonus when using 1h weapon + shield, but requiring plugin changes (meaning devtime of Acaos), giving barbarians the choice to either stay medium size and use their weapon of choice with 40% more damage or switch to Shapestrong and enjoy shield +20% damage without any additional hassle. In all honesty I would prefer the second option even if it meant waiting longer for the change. EDIT: Quotes on proboards suck big time. Or I do.
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Post by gladi8or on Mar 2, 2020 22:03:42 GMT
Ok, I think there's some confusion here. There's nothing "up with my barb." I wasn't clear on my original post; however, Funky understood what I meant. Alright, so I don't know what's up with glads barb, but my barb definitely isn't being forced to go down to medium size upon changing weapon when shaped. Can swap just fine. His problem is that he is deshifting to medium to get an improved ac and a 20% oversized damage bonus. When you do this, and you try to swap to another oversize weapon, the engine automatically first unequips your current weapon (go figure), and then your shield, before equipping your new weapon; because you are currently not the proper size to take advantage of it. The way around this is to shift to large before the swap, swap, and shift back to medium. He's complaining about this being cumbersome. Yes, the mechanics are cumbersome. Even when quick-slotted, hitting the SS the way described above is a pain. Let me be more clear. If you stay medium, swap your weapon and lose your shield, your ac drops drastically. Why would you not just hit the ss, become large, then hit the ss again? Because there are times in the middle of a fight where your weapon may be healing an enemy and/or causing tremendous kickback to yourself and/or party members. While you are not potentially "healing" the enemy on purpose or trying to cause KB, anyone who has played a tank knows cleave happens. If you stop attacking in order to hit the SS, to become large, swap weapons, hit the ss again - you are pretty flat footed and open to a wave of damage. Cumbersome? Yes! But also quite a disadvantage of playing that class. In places like Limbo, you don't have a lot of time to mess with this, especially when large spawns happen. Sometimes even when a random spawn appears, your toon may immediately start attacking. Thus, the reason no one really enjoys playing barbarians, and are more likely to play a different type of tank who can swap weapons seamlessly while in combat. That's my argument. I like Funky's idea of making something similar to the AA bows. I'm very intrigued by this and think it would not only eliminate the difficulty mentioned in this post, but also give the barbarian class something new and enticing to try. I hope this helps clarify my previous posts.
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Post by gladi8or on Mar 2, 2020 22:04:47 GMT
Also, for the record, I suck at quoting someone else's post on here
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 2, 2020 22:59:24 GMT
His problem is that he is deshifting to medium to get an improved ac and a 20% oversized damage bonus. When you do this, and you try to swap to another oversize weapon, the engine automatically first unequips your current weapon (go figure), and then your shield, before equipping your new weapon; because you are currently not the proper size to take advantage of it. The way around this is to shift to large before the swap, swap, and shift back to medium. He's complaining about this being cumbersome. right...erm, not to be dense but yes? it seems like you are surprised by glad finding this cumbersome, I don't know why it seems that way to you, as I neither am surprised by this nor expressed even an iota of surprise, and am actively entertaining ideas to fix it precisely because it's cumbersome (i.e., QoL). Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 2, 2020 23:03:49 GMT
That's not his problem. His problem is that he is deshifting to medium to get an improved ac and a 20% oversized damage bonus. When you do this, and you try to swap to another oversize weapon, the engine automatically first unequips your current weapon (go figure), and then your shield, before equipping your new weapon; because you are currently not the proper size to take advantage of it. The way around this is to shift to large before the swap, swap, and shift back to medium. He's complaining about this being cumbersome. If you were not aware of this bonus, it's likely because it's insufficiently documented - a problem I'm hoping to rectify now that I can access the dev environment we use for doccing. Funky That was not what he was saying in the initial post. Why does it matter what he said? I'm explaining the actual problem, to avoid confusion and (hopefully) get useful ideas. It's pretty clear to me that's the issue he's describing, having discussed it with the Team and looked at the code. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 2, 2020 23:11:03 GMT
So the two scenarios I understand are: 1) Create a special kind of weapon for barbarians that works *slightly* less clunky than the way it is now (opening inventory, using item special power - weapon or command targeter - on a weapon, closing inventory) for the cost of probably high dev time that would either not work that well with buffs and slagging mechanics, or would require additional hacks in those areas adding code clutter and making future rewrites more difficult. Sort of. It's not just less clunky, as it avoids a serious period of vulnerability by avoiding the shield drop. It would create potential for issues with buffing, though I think slagging we could handle. Yes, it has a somewhat high dev cost, but no real code clutter. Given the amount of plugin debt we have, that's likely to be years, versus a week or so. Funky
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Post by madzapper on Mar 3, 2020 18:56:49 GMT
1) Create a special kind of weapon for barbarians that works *slightly* less clunky than the way it is now (opening inventory, using item special power - weapon or command targeter - on a weapon, closing inventory) for the cost of probably high dev time that would either not work that well with buffs and slagging mechanics, or would require additional hacks in those areas adding code clutter and making future rewrites more difficult. I understand it might have been explained this way, but I'll just say there are probably other ways to go about the weapon cloning that do not have to be quite as clunky. For example, The weapons could be identified on the "token" initially, then selected via simtools. For example: Name weapon 1: ACS / DMP Use token, select "ACS / DMP", weapon is identified by token. Name weapon 2: AFS / DMN Use token, select "AFS / DMN", weapon is identified by token. use some simtool command: !weptoken "ACS / DMP" Properties of "ACS / DMP" absorbed into cloning weapon. use some simtool command: !weptoken "AFS / DMN" Properties of "AFS / DMN" absorbed into cloning weapon. The work is done up-front by identifying the weapons, then the selection is done in the end by way of simtools. Let me also note that while this could be instantaneous giving Barb an unreasonable advantage over other melee, I imagine it doesn't have to be. It could probably simulate the speed of a normal weapon swap. Cheers, Madzapper
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 3, 2020 19:26:59 GMT
Good alternative to keep inventory closed. Let's do it.
Thanks, Funkys
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Post by Methes on Mar 3, 2020 19:59:49 GMT
1) Create a special kind of weapon for barbarians that works *slightly* less clunky than the way it is now (opening inventory, using item special power - weapon or command targeter - on a weapon, closing inventory) for the cost of probably high dev time that would either not work that well with buffs and slagging mechanics, or would require additional hacks in those areas adding code clutter and making future rewrites more difficult. I understand it might have been explained this way, but I'll just say there are probably other ways to go about the weapon cloning that do not have to be quite as clunky. For example, The weapons could be identified on the "token" initially, then selected via simtools. For example: Name weapon 1: ACS / DMP Use token, select "ACS / DMP", weapon is identified by token. Name weapon 2: AFS / DMN Use token, select "AFS / DMN", weapon is identified by token. use some simtool command: !weptoken "ACS / DMP" Properties of "ACS / DMP" absorbed into cloning weapon. use some simtool command: !weptoken "AFS / DMN" Properties of "AFS / DMN" absorbed into cloning weapon. The work is done up-front by identifying the weapons, then the selection is done in the end by way of simtools. Let me also note that while this could be instantaneous giving Barb an unreasonable advantage over other melee, I imagine it doesn't have to be. It could probably simulate the speed of a normal weapon swap. Cheers, Madzapper Sweet, that would be great.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 23:53:25 GMT
Can you use the SIM Tools in combat though?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 4, 2020 0:08:10 GMT
Yup.
Funky
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