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Post by woqued on Dec 13, 2020 20:29:37 GMT
I think you should consider loot bloat and drop tables when considering adding all this new stuff, poisons dropping and separate containers for them and so on. If theres a way then less may be more, hence also the electrifier suggestion; but if it doesn't make sense lore-wise (it kinda doesn't, it'd just be handy) then ehhh. Prefer class feature doing something about it, like %chance of not using the poison charge on application, or a way to turn experience/gp/something into extra charges. Maybe blackguards can be venomous in nature so they can just put an iv-drip to procure poisons from themselves.
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Post by drunkenboastor on Dec 13, 2020 21:31:21 GMT
Maybe a combination of crafting items could be used to make various consumables.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 21:43:47 GMT
Maybe a combination of crafting items could be used to make various consumables. I love this idea. There is also a lot of unused crafting items. And with the recent adjustment to loot torches, what a fantastic idea to foster use of the torch post adjustments.
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Post by chirality on Dec 13, 2020 23:38:15 GMT
@ poisons/ass/bg
They should be a class feature of these two classes. There is a reason that they get the Use Poison feat and other classes do not. Rogues and shadowdancers, for example, share many similarities with assassins, and have many crossover concepts both flavor/lore-wise as well as game mechanic-wise. However, the fundamental differences are clearly delineated both in the PnP/D&D/NWN source, again mechanically and archetypally. The bard class shares many features and themes in common with the rogue, yet there's absolutely no question that both are markedly different.
I don't think an extensive list of distinguishing features is desired or warranted, but to provide an explanation:
-- there is a difference between being "non-good" vs being evil (in the case of SD vs Assassin) -- and there is a difference between being a core class (open to literally any flavor, alignment, or concept) that embodies the "scoundrel" RPG role, capable of being visualized as anything from a golden-hearted do-gooder to a psychopathic criminal, vs a prestige class that is literally evil by definition and restricted only to the foulest of souls imaginable (in the case of Rogue vs Assassin, or Blackguard)
Using poison (in our D&D->NWN->HG world, anyway) is historically a defining class feature of assassins and bgs, which is why they are by definition assumed to be so practiced at using poisons that they get a special feat to embody this (even though, much as in PnP, it doesn't do much in practice).
The implementation as a class feature already is in place: the feat which (in NWN) suggests that both classes use poison so much that they are skilled at applying it to their weapons.
The poisons-as-consumable framework is already in place, so I would merely disallow the use by non-ass/bg to cement it as a "feature" of these classes. If anything, this could be a perk for bg as a splash, which is essentially a clear step down in power from paladin splash. I don't see a need to require CC to use poisons, but I don't think just anyone should be able to use poisons (on HG), even with a large gap of effectiveness/duration/etc.
I would consider electrifier-rechargeable poisons to be an expensive yet reasonable solution/compromise to treating poisons as a assassin/bg feature without being too cumbersome or unpleasant. After all, poisons are, in fact, expensive consumables by the basic premise of D&D/NWN design itself (as in real life). Even mundane poisons produced via magic are historically limited in various ways in the D&D system.
Overall, I very much enjoy the long-awaited momentum and incremental improvements to poisons in HG that have accrued over the years. While lash inarguably does not need any buff (in fact, at risk of derailing, I'm still completely flummoxed by the last buff they received, quite unexpectedly and unnecessarily), and while assassin just received a very measurable buff package, bg as always still falls behind paladin in virtually every way that really matters--save for style--especially after the latest puzzling paladin buff which completely removed what little smite-centric perk bg held. BKs, despite recent buffs as well, are a bit of a question mark still, so overall, poisons being too strong for the 2 quasis is a "potential" hazard; for assassins and bg, a nonissue (assuming poisons aren't dramatically/oversight-edly buffed too much).
Hence, it's very nice for poisons to be continuing to get improved. I think electrifable rechargement would be amazing and, coupled with more proliferation of drop/access in the first place, would truly help cement them as a class feature that is used constantly and could finally transition into being considered as a permanent "+" on the list of features for determining class balance.
Considering further poison-based class-specific buffs is tantalizing and fun to theorize, but frankly there's a lot to take in, and assassin just got buffed, so it seems out-of-sync to do anything further with improved poisons anytime soon; bg, on the other hand, could desperately use some love, although again, I think making poisons as an assumed "pal doesn't get poisons, bg weap is always poisoned" feature would be worth letting stand for some time and then review.
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Post by yune on Dec 14, 2020 8:16:06 GMT
How much do the DI and DR poisons actually inflict? I can't find it in docs anywhere.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 14, 2020 14:46:36 GMT
I dont feel that poisons are a class-enhance or flavor item for Assassins, but rather a thematic, centric, and class-defining ability. Not in the base game. All they get is a bonus to poison saves. Nor in 5E, where poisons have to be harvested. In fact, this seems like precisely the kind of ability that fits with an item. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 14, 2020 14:48:38 GMT
I think you should consider loot bloat and drop tables when considering adding all this new stuff, poisons dropping and separate containers for them and so on. What makes you think we haven't? Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 14, 2020 14:52:38 GMT
@ poisons/ass/bg They should be a class feature of these two classes. There is a reason that they get the Use Poison feat and other classes do not. Utilizing the same (flawed) reasoning, there's also a reason the feat isn't the 'Conjure Poison' feat. Funky
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Post by chirality on Dec 14, 2020 15:28:16 GMT
I don't follow--Hive poisons already require the Use Poison feat to apply. Are you saying that this was a mistake or an improper precedent that was set for other poisons?
In that case, I imagine you intend to implement the intended vanilla dex check (assumedly with a boosted DC to account for HG's high-magic setting), to determine whether or not a character without the feat poisons themselves when applying poisons? After all, without such a risk carrying any meaningful consequence, the use of poison by "untrained" characters is entirely devoid of value or cost.
Otherwise, I'm not sure what the mechanism of self-poison risk translates to as a pertinent choice or class feature, nor why there should be zero ground for arguing that the class feature could be extended into something tangible (such as the equivalent of "allowed to use poisons") on HG.
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Post by woqued on Dec 14, 2020 16:11:33 GMT
I think you should consider loot bloat and drop tables when considering adding all this new stuff, poisons dropping and separate containers for them and so on. What makes you think we haven't? Funky Alright, rephrase. I think it is an important part to consider. I think theres too much *stuff* in the loot/search tables already so I worry sometimes. That is precisely why I will always mention it again and again if a mechanic, class feature, whatever is in the future planned to be done by using a droppable item. Not implying that it hasn't been done at all - just putting further emphasis on that part. My inventories are messy and full of junk, so it's weak point as I'm not good at managing it all. Somewhat reminiscient of "don't forget to eat". It's not implying that the person you say that to is incapable of doing it, or hasn't considered doing it, or hasn't done it. Just a reminder to do it because it matters and may be overlooked when you have a lot on your plate moving your attention elsewhere.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 14, 2020 16:26:27 GMT
What stuff in the consumables tables are you concerned about seeing less of?
Your comment struck me as odd, because there's nothing requiring us from adding separate loot with its own 'table', as we did in Trag. Put another way, you're assuming one item must displace others. That isn't the case.
All that said, they definitely have a displacing effect of the kind you're concerned about when it comes to the consumable chests, so your point is well taken as to them.
Funky
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Post by woqued on Dec 14, 2020 16:58:12 GMT
What stuff in the consumables tables are you concerned about seeing less of? Funky Currently I don't care about consumable chests at all with the exception of getting the blue dust for XR weapon crafting. But beyond that, also potential future ideas. I think Poisons would be the best drops excluding the XR crafting dust in current consumable chests. If, in the future another even better idea comes up, it may be better that the loot pools aren't already completely cluttered at the time. I think the same applies to a bunch of places where we search, where we end up finding gnoll dung tier items for our trouble. It makes sense that not every time you see something glimmering under a rock that it's a diamond, sometimes its quartz. If it's 80%-90% [exaggeration] quartz, maybe it's not worth the effort. Also to the amount of consumable chests - there are a huge amount of them to go through so odds of finding "diamonds" is fairly high, I'd prefer lesser amount of chests with higher odds of finding the stuff that's good, and with higher cost of opening (pick +) - doesn't mean it'd be better for everyone, but I'd prefer that. I think having the poisons and some sort of container for them sounds pretty good, but they're already competing against a bunch of weird things that I don't know if anyone uses - but that could just be me not appreciating them enough / lacking know-how on some stuff due to never really figuring the newer consumables out as well.
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Post by manuka on Dec 15, 2020 7:02:15 GMT
This has probs been asked already but ye
All good games get updates and change and this is great.
However on hg a to get a character to max level demi and abyss takes a long time.(and im a boxer!)
When such massive changes to the game happen without any warning(that i knew about) i feel that it could be a reasonable request that as well as reinc timers being reset, reinc restrictions should also be removed for a 1 off reinc.
Why? I like playing the best builds and characters to achieve my HG end game fantasies, as i assume some other do as well, and have no interest in leveling new characters. Also i would rather spend time farming gear for my newly reinced toons than level new ones.
So atm i can either slowly reinc my toons over many multiple reincs into the newly buffed classes or make new toons(nope)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 7:11:37 GMT
This has probs been asked already but ye All good games get updates and change and this is great. However on hg a to get a character to max level demi and abyss takes a long time.(and im a boxer!) When such massive changes to the game happen without any warning(that i knew about) i feel that it could be a reasonable request that as well as reinc timers being reset, reinc restrictions should also be removed for a 1 off reinc. Why? I like playing the best builds and characters to achieve my HG end game fantasies, as i assume some other do as well, and have no interest in leveling new characters. Also i would rather spend time farming gear for my newly reinced toons than level new ones. So atm i can either slowly reinc my toons over many multiple reincs into the newly buffed classes or make new toons(nope) Curious why you deserve special treatment when all others are in the same position? Is it because Funky didn't happen to inform you of the update? What about when you were farming Ssendem canos? Did you tell Funky about that? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Post by manuka on Dec 15, 2020 7:14:07 GMT
This has probs been asked already but ye All good games get updates and change and this is great. However on hg a to get a character to max level demi and abyss takes a long time.(and im a boxer!) When such massive changes to the game happen without any warning(that i knew about) i feel that it could be a reasonable request that as well as reinc timers being reset, reinc restrictions should also be removed for a 1 off reinc. Why? I like playing the best builds and characters to achieve my HG end game fantasies, as i assume some other do as well, and have no interest in leveling new characters. Also i would rather spend time farming gear for my newly reinced toons than level new ones. So atm i can either slowly reinc my toons over many multiple reincs into the newly buffed classes or make new toons(nope) Curious why you deserve special treatment when all others are in the same position? Is it because Funky didn't happen to inform you of the update? What about when you were farming Ssendem canos? Did you tell Funky about that? Inquiring minds want to know. can u read? Everyone can make use of this 1 off reinc
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