Rogue build - impossible expectations?

[Lythe Featherblade]

I'm looking to rebuild my rogue, and made a list of what I want it to be able to do. After some fiddling with numbers, I realize this may not be possible.

Stuff I want my rogue do do

1: Be a rogue (locks/traps no problem, no splash rogue)

2: good defense (propably dexer, str rogues fall a little short here)

3: good saves (hells would be nice eventually)

4: good damage (dex builds fall short these days, especially with the better weapon choices and better crits on non-finessable weapons now)

5: Visible armor (not as essential, but I'd like to customize and even look nice occastionally)

Is it too much to ask for a rogue that can contribute a bit beyond those 3 locks/traps at the end of the run? It seems a tossup between good damage, decent tanking and decent saves, 2 might be barely doable but not all 3.

Here's my build estimates so far (don't ask where I pulled the numbers from, because they stink)

Halfling death - tanking 9/10, damage 7/10, saves 3/10
Hell rogue - tanking 7/10, damage 4/10, saves 9/10 (and needs great subrace/gear)

stinger str based halfling death using dire mace and shield (rough estimate)
- tanking 5/10, damage 9/10, saves 7/10

[chainlink]

Try an AA rogue build gives you tanking and a damage option with Dusty/Hells bows, worked for me

[mishimayukio]

With the legendary save feats I've managed to get my latest incarnation of halfling death's saves up to 63 82 59. Still not perfect but I had to sacrifice a little bit to get both self concealment 5 and the epic skill focuses. I used kolyarut and dropped 8 fighter levels for 8 more rogue levels so I could use my epic rogue bonus feats to take self concealment and free up some epic feats. I also dropped epic prowess and epic weapon focus, as well as lost 1 BAB due to pre-epic level adjustments.

[Trazik]

Ouch, that's givingup a lot IMHO.

I have come to the realization that I need a rogue (for all those chests and chances to get low level rares) but have realized many of the issues in the opening thread (and I don't even have Planewalker yet).

Feedback, suggestions, advice etc are welcome as far as I am concerned.

Is it worthwhile to try to advance a rogue through Hells? Or should I just stick to level 60 and all the normal tags?

Kind regards,

Trazik

[dodrudon]

Any build that splashes Rogue at 40 can open all chests up to Dachy (though you'll need equipment for that), I have a thid wizzy that I used to explore the mod, because he can solo all the low level areas as well as detrap and open chests.

[alandrian]

The problems i see with rogues in hell and hg in general are that they are very short on feats. Most take dex route and SC. SC itself has quite huge requirements in dex and cost 5 feats. In addition to that a rogue is forced to take 2 skillfocuci to do his duties in hell.Would be cool if they get the focuci for free when reaching 25 levels of rogue .
I made up a couple of different builds with monk, pal, cot, fighter, wm levels but actually never really redid my rogue because they were always lacking either defence or damage or saves. My best shot was an rogue/cot/pal with nice saves and defence but quite poor damage. Maybe i should really consider aa or ass levels.

[dodrudon]

alandrian said:

Maybe i should really consider aa or ass levels.

No. There are enough of the latter here. Otherwise, please report to the DM's office to be banned.

[Lythe Featherblade]

I guess a good hope then is that ninja or maybe another quasi class would enable a hellsworthy rogue that doesn't end up sacrificing offense or defense (and not BUR subbie and gear to work).

[mishimayukio]

trazik said:

Ouch, that's givingup a lot IMHO.

My AB will still be 73 with +14, with song that is more than enough.

[thedomicron]

you're coming at this from the wrong angle, where you list locks/traps etc as your primary goal. that should be tacked onto the bottom of your list. i'm not saying you should ditch it if you can't fit it in, but rather focus on dmg vs defense first, and, once you have those where you like them, add the feats and skills you'll need to open chests, and decide if you have to give up more than you're willing to successfully create your build.

starting from the assumption of all your skills and feats for non-combat situations means you approach a build as if its offense and defense are merely benefits to some walking chest-opener. instead of the other way around

[dodrudon]

What the dome is trying to say is that you are more than a skeleton key with legs, you're a skeleton key with legs, teeth, AC, and a bite that HURTS

[bkelowna]

hmm, I have a kolyarut rogue 31 rogue/ 2 pal/ 7wm with no saves less that 63 (well at lvl 60 ), uses rapier, 50% conceal, fear immune and can use a tower shield for flexibility. Unfortunately he did not get a rogue bonus feat with his 31st lvl of rouge (1 more feat would have been nice but ...).


[edited had put large sheild but it is tower]

[Lythe Featherblade]

What use is a rogue if they couldn't handle the traps/chests? Too many runs require a rogue at some point, and the idea is to have a rogue that can handle the traps and locks and still be a contributing member of the party for the rest of the run instead of being run in after or dragged by a 2-boxer. If I can't do the locks/traps, why focus on the rogue to begin with?

As for the kolyarut bkelowna, 3 extra feats and oodles of needed dex/con (and str if you go that way) opens up a lot of flexibility that lets you cover the weak spots, instead of having that large gap in offense, defense or saves (not to mention BUR subrace means BUR items needed to make it work). Unfortunately this makes it that you need the hells to make a well rounded rogue before you can make a well rounded rogue to get to the hells.

I guess my rogue's going to have to wait a bit as I blend in as just one more tin can questing for better subbies and gear to make other builds possible.

[DragonChyld]

Heh just make a dexed based Battle Cleric with the trickery domain and 2 levels of Rouge

~! DC

[phalthallus]

Yeah, I agree with lythe here. Lower levels of Hells have UR and then BUR chests, and they require ESF: Search and ESF: Disarm. If you're going to make a rogue, and you want to go to the Nine, take those feats. You'll kick yourself if you don't.