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Post by chainlink on May 21, 2007 8:06:22 GMT
You certainly need a good mix of characters to complete Hells run, I must admit that the Stygia run was the first time I've been in a situation where two people were saying "Me, me me" when it came to opening the BUR chest. What I think it shows is that people are building more flexible characters in our cases an assassin (primary function dev crits and nice damage) and an AA (primary function consistent ranged damage output) that can both open stuff. It is possible to build them with non UR or BUR races at the cost of a what the Dod has mentioned above. I wouldn't expect everything to be handed to you on a plate though, after all I spent a goodly amount of time fiddling with the CBC and the test chamber before I decided on my rogue AA build and I could have taken the easy route and just made a 'Flurry'.
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Post by thedomicron on May 21, 2007 9:48:24 GMT
exactly. i use a bur race because, well, i have it to use. would i make an assassin w/out it? probably not. could i make a good rogue w/out one? absolutely. gear is no more important than any other melee build in the hells. keep in mind that the hells are the end game, and so most of the people who build characters for them use urs.
i suggest you look at which subraces you have available, and see if any you have atm fit what you need. dex of course, int is great, con is good, wisdom if you plan on monk level...charisma for paladin/bg etc...
if you have a race like githyanki, then you take a wisdom penalty, so maybe that one could go w/ paladin/bg levels instead of monk, meaning you'll definately wanna take SC feats and use shield. you can fairly quickly decide on several quick class combo's by perusing your tags: ok x subrace, rogue good monk bad, pal bad, move on. Y subrace, dex good wis good int bad, maybe move on etc
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Post by dodrudon on May 21, 2007 15:33:31 GMT
Does it seem to anyone else like it's always the ones with UR/BUR subbies that say "oh, you don't NEED UR/BUR subbies for an effective build" while the ones without them are the ones that say "you can't make a good build without them!", or am I jumping to conclusions?
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Post by Acaos on May 21, 2007 15:42:50 GMT
I can say the first batch of Demigods included a Kurai and a Derrzagon, so you definitely don't need even UR subrace.
Acaos
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Post by chainlink on May 21, 2007 16:09:06 GMT
I can say the first batch of Demigods included a Kurai and a Derrzagon, so you definitely don't need even UR subrace. Acaos Ah you say that but in tweaking the difficulty of the final boss area is that still true? I know its only a few points here and there but it might make that vital difference.
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Post by bort on May 21, 2007 16:14:14 GMT
Here's another question - should you be exploring the hardest areas of the game before spending at least a little time exploring the rest of the server first? Because if you do, it won't be long before you gain access to a Secret subrace or two at the very least.
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Post by kaldair on May 21, 2007 16:15:14 GMT
Dodrudon - when I first read your post I agreed with your premise, then after some thought I agreed more with your final question. It's the old "horse-before-the cart" thingy. I'm fairly certain that the observation shouldn't be "BURR's" vs "No-BURR's", but rather "experience" vs "lack thereof". In other words, the players who have the most experience GENERALLY have the most BUR's & BURR's. With such experience they can (as expected) take a regular or UR race & play it through all levels of the Hells. But since they garned BURR's & BUR's over their years of playing - they most likely will choose to use them. I suspect, based on some of the things new peeps post, that you could take a new person to HG, hand them a BURR and some BUR's, point them to these boards, and they'd get their head handed to them on a platter at the same rate (or nearly enough) as the same player who wasn't decked out ...
Kaldair =)
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on May 21, 2007 16:58:05 GMT
You don't need a BUR race for every build to make it hells worthy. Something like the tin can for instance already has most bases covered, I built it with a free race (and a dragonblood) and it's a tank with great physical immunities (thanks to control class), elemental immunities, great innate saves so that it's easy to get 64 65 64 saves at 60 without spending too many feats, and damage wise I have a crit modifier of 15-20x3 with 29 extra str damage to whatever the weapon does.
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Post by dodrudon on May 21, 2007 18:40:55 GMT
Dodrudon - when I first read your post I agreed with your premise, then after some thought I agreed more with your final question. It's the old "horse-before-the cart" thingy. I'm fairly certain that the observation shouldn't be "BURR's" vs "No-BURR's", but rather "experience" vs "lack thereof". In other words, the players who have the most experience GENERALLY have the most BUR's & BURR's. With such experience they can (as expected) take a regular or UR race & play it through all levels of the Hells. But since they garned BURR's & BUR's over their years of playing - they most likely will choose to use them. I suspect, based on some of the things new peeps post, that you could take a new person to HG, hand them a BURR and some BUR's, point them to these boards, and they'd get their head handed to them on a platter at the same rate (or nearly enough) as the same player who wasn't decked out ... Kaldair =) Just practicing my cynicity
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Post by stonewarrior on May 21, 2007 19:29:42 GMT
Having read through thi discussion I have realized 2 things: - capable rogues truly need top gear - capable rogues truly need a BUR or UR subrace "Capable" meaning all of the things Lythe talked about in the opening thread, like (in no particular order, thedomicron ): - able to open any lock - able to find and disarm any trap - able to deal reasonable damage - able to do "big runs" rather than be chained/succored/botted in as an afterthought - able to get good saves and otherwise be hell-worthy I guess the above holds true for many, many builds. It's just that rogues are so obviuosly useful and necessary that one becomes inclined to think about making one as one of your first 2 or 3 HG characters. Just my 2 cents. Trazik I do not agree. I have a Halfling Death tagged through Malbolge...though in fairness I succored him in for the Stygia and Malbolge tags as his will save is 51. I built him with Tiefling which is a secret race and he has Self Concealment V as well as ESF: Search and Disable Trap. I sacrificed a couple of Great Dexterity's to get it. He can open any lock in the game. He can find / disarm any trap in the game. He does fairly good damage (now with a Dis Kukri..and with a DB version b/f I got the Dis one) He performs outstanding on any run outside of the hells. He also did very well through the first four levels of hell...and I suspect if I kept him away from the Aminzu's and Erinyes he would do adequately further down...though the Hand of Vecna would help him a lot. Starting with Minauros every hell party needs a rogue or you will be leaving chests unopened. UR and BUR races help...but if you play around enough with what you have you can probably get it to work. Your AB might not be as high as other builds...but that does not make you any less important. You won't see any standard AA's or RDD''s or WM's etc popping the BUR chests. Peace, John.
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Post by thedomicron on May 21, 2007 19:55:36 GMT
i don't think you can make every build hells worthy without ur/bur races, but i think you can make most classes workable through the hells, but of course it requires gear and bonuses to excell.
i've played for almost a year now on hg, for a few months i play an hour a night, and then i went for a while where i played like 6 hours a day, and now i play much less than that, and i have a few burs, plenty of urs, and the experience to use it.
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Post by kaldair on May 21, 2007 20:30:47 GMT
Oopsie Dodo sorry for missing the obvious 0.o
Kaldair
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Post by dodrudon on May 21, 2007 20:40:28 GMT
You're forgiven... THIS time... just don't let it happen again.....
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on May 22, 2007 14:40:24 GMT
Never did have time to finish my post yesterday, and doubt I will today.
Anyways, interesting to hear how far you've gotten a 51 will rogue, especially considering how I keep hearing that you want 60+ at least for all saves, I'd love to know how you'll perform further down, as I recall earlier in this thread a BURR halfling death variant having 'only 59 will'.
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Post by thedomicron on May 22, 2007 16:15:44 GMT
you have to keep in mind that there is a slight exaggeration and context issue. first of all, for those with bur subbies, the goal is to hit 60+ for that comfort factor, with a good party and things like fear immune etc, you can be fine with less than perfect saves.
more importantly, look at who is saying such things, and consider how your rogue will be playing, while you want to get as high as saves as possible, if you get a 57 will save, which gets lowered in the hells by penalties, well then you'll just need to avoid the enemies with those attacks. its not unheard of, anyone who has partied with me knows my standing policy on pit fiends: if i see them, i run. its nothing to be ashamed of, a halfling assassin with 18 str and 30 con (after gear) simply can't stand up to one of them.
so, is not having perfect saves less than ideal? of course, but you can hedge your position with knowledge of your enemies and smart play. as a dexer, i look at enemies in four categories, kill first, tank first, tank last, avoid. kill first are enemies with instant death attacks and enemies with high kickback and low fortitude; tank first are enemies with undesireable but non-death effects, enemies which heal, enemies that dexers tank well; tank last enemies are those with effects which hurt dexers, or take advantage of their low str, but which you have a chance to kill, these enemies have to be tanked in order to protect the casters; the run away enemies are like pit fiends, where depending on the situation, a nice gs scroll and a stack of resses takes the place of my weapon...
ask in game, find people finishing hells runs, and ask them about saves and importance etc, go straight to the most experience, instead of taking advice from forums at their full weight
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