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Post by thedomicron on May 19, 2007 5:11:05 GMT
i never said you should abandon your rogue abilities, merely to stop thinking of a rogue as a walking keyring.
for instance, when i built my assassin (my most recent character so i'll use him as an example) i choose it because its damage is amazing, even for a dexer, and improved invis grants high conceal. ifigured out early on that wm levels are excellent, and i was lucky enough to have a subrace which allowed me to fit it in, so i did. with wm and assassin levels set, i had an offensive powerhouse. i then looked at defense, in the form of saves. i ended up with a build that had great saves, great ab, and huge damage. i FINALLY looked at the 2 skill feats i'd need in order to make sure i could get all the hells chests, and realized that i wanted to maintain high damage, so i sacrificed a couple of points in fort saves, and a few ab. i could easily have sacrificed dmg by dropping wm levels, or saves, or even damage by givbing up dev crit. but when i choose to give up what i did, i knew exactly what i'd have afterwards, instead of having a build where "ok i have my lock pick skills, my trap skills, but how am i going to do any damage?"
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on May 19, 2007 6:09:00 GMT
Now you have me confused as I have heard far too many times that you need a rogue for higher locks/traps, that an assassin won't cut it. I haven't dwelved further into that, so I'd love some clarification there.
As for the walking lockpick, what I'm saying is if your build has rogue as the control class, that you can get all the locks/traps should be a given. It's the sheer number of feats (and stats) needed otherwise to round out the build that leave the gaps in either defense, offense or saves.
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Post by Yommie on May 19, 2007 6:36:32 GMT
You could try the rogue I'm building ATM...It is still in the making but it seems pretty good....I did 1 monk level (for flurry of blows and I use duel kamas) and 1 SD level (For HIPS) and 38 rogue...It deals hardly any damage for normal attacks and it's crits are low but when it does a successful sneak it deals around 100 damage with mundane kama's and it has huge reflex saves and alright will and fort saves....I just put all my feats into getting higher AB and improved sneak attacks...It also has alright defense. When I have finished building it I will post it.
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Post by thedomicron on May 19, 2007 6:41:50 GMT
you need at least one rogue level. my assassin has 3 rogue levels. assassin control gives you access to OL/search/DT skills throughout LL.
as for rogue control, doing something like 16 rogue, 13 wm, 11 monk would net you good saves great ab, and a rogue control. that's just off the top of my head mind you, but you can often use a different mixture of classes to make up for lack of feats, either that or, like mish's halfling death, just use fighter levels. but i suggest you stop looking for rogue builds which can do damage, but start looking for tank/striker builds which can incorporate rogue control. instead of, "well what can i add to 21 rogue levels for damage" start with something like a dwarven defender and ask yourself "how can rogue levels benefit me?" dwarven defenders get dmg reduction, D12 hitpoints, full bab and good will saves. damage? add in weapon master levels? or fighter levels for feats? if you go dexer, 16 rogue levels gives you improved evasion, defensive roll and maybe slippery mind, letting you qualify for epic dodge.
you say rogue and you mean locks, i think rogue and i think 3 levels for evasion, 10 for IE, 13 for defensive roll/slippery mind, etc.
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Post by bkelowna on May 19, 2007 15:06:31 GMT
As for the kolyarut bkelowna, 3 extra feats and oodles of needed dex/con (and str if you go that way) opens up a lot of flexibility that lets you cover the weak spots, instead of having that large gap in offense, defense or saves (not to mention BUR subrace means BUR items needed to make it work). Unfortunately this makes it that you need the hells to make a well rounded rogue before you can make a well rounded rogue to get to the hells. I guess my rogue's going to have to wait a bit as I blend in as just one more tin can questing for better subbies and gear to make other builds possible. I agree with you 100% and it is not just rogues that are effected like that either. I originally said my rogue can use large sheild but edited that, since he can use tower shield and also has keen senses btw.
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on May 19, 2007 17:11:05 GMT
thedomicron, have you built many rogues? Believe me it's not as easy as you make it sound. If you look at my first post you'll see 3 different rogue options tossed there, and the flaws in them that I'm trying to cover. Halfling death? even with 12 fighter levels, tight on feats. Why? 6 feats qualifying for WM, 5 feats for self conceal (plus 2 rogue bonus feats), finesse, maybe exotic weapon, 2 skill focus and all the dex you can get, plus the usual blind fighting toughness etc on top of a class combination that's hurting in saves and doesn't quite hit 60 on all saves even if it can cram in every +save feat there is. Dropping those fighter levels for something else isn't quite that easy.
If you do have a rogue WM assassin, you've saved 5 feats on self conceal, 3 bonus feats by not taking improved evasion/defensive roll/epic dodge, in return for being the top melee damage dealer. 8 feats makes up for the 12 fighter levels in halfling death, and if you didn't go WM you're laughing in terms of feats.
DD for damage reduction? It's called Hell Rogue, str build, no WM levels, Blackguard for charisma saves, designed with a BUR race in mind, you propably end up just below average for for a str tank, you're not a damage dealer (though you beat out dexer non-WM between better weapons and added STR damage) and you need really great gear to make it all work.
banksy, are you new to the server? If you're going for HIPS, it sounds like you haven't been here long, you might want to read the General Effective Building Guidelines thread right above this one.
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Post by thedomicron on May 19, 2007 18:11:43 GMT
to be honest, almost all melee characters need pretty good gear to be successful, but all of the builds i have were created, and they all do well. it soudns to me like you're asking for a character with no weaknesses, who gets the full benefit of AA-ab, wm-crits, str tank dmg reduction/hp and rogue skills?
so the answer to your inital question is yes, i believe your expectations are impossible.
keep in mind though, that just because a character doesn't do as much damage as you'd like, or you have to run away from certain enemies (i do against pit fiends) doesn't mean you have a worthless build. it just means you have to adapt to your environment and find ways to succeed.
i promise you that a rogue can do excellent damage in the hells, i know mish's new rogue build does fine with sneak attacks, has plenty of ab, survives as well as a dexer can expect, and still opens chests at the end of a run.
why not give up wm levels? using an 18-20 weapon you still get good criticals, and sneaks add to that dmg, and then you're free to take paladin maybe for boost, or monk, whatever. 7 shadow dancer levels gets you slippery mind, and 5 gives you defensive roll.
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Post by bort on May 19, 2007 19:53:37 GMT
Heh just make a dexed based Battle Cleric with the trickery domain and 2 levels of Rouge ~! DC Does anyone know if LLs are taken into account for Trickery Domain Clerics? I.e. would a character with 58 Cleric/2 Rogue get +29 to search, disable trap and open lock? ...or just +19?
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Post by Acaos on May 19, 2007 20:23:10 GMT
I don't believe they are at the moment.
Regardless, the bonuses from the Trickery Domain Power fall into the +50 limit from items and buffs. If you had 43 base skill in OL/DT, 60 Dexterity, and 22 Intelligence you would have:
43 (base) + 25 (Dex) + 50 (items) = 118 Open Lock 43 (base) + 6 (Int) + 50 (items) = 99 Disable Trap
With ESF Open Lock, you could open any lock in the game. However, even SF Disable Trap, ESF Disable Trap, and the +2 synergy bonus from having 5+ Set Trap skill won't get you past 114 Disable Trap. You would need to have a base Intelligence of 36 (rather than 10) to get the necessary 13 additional points to hit the 127 cap.
Acaos
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Post by cathedralmaster on May 19, 2007 20:49:13 GMT
If you went 38 cleric, 2 rogue you would also have to get an outrageously high intelligence just to get the necessary number of skillpoints to max the skills to 43, let alone get the extra you'd need to get it to 127.
Clerics only get 2 + int modifier for skill points (compared to 8 + int modifier for rogues) meaning with a non human race, you need 14 intelligence to max only 4 skills. With a battle cleric, you'd need concentration, discipline, and tumble right off the bat. If you want self conceal feats that's 30 into hide. Throw in disable trap, lock pick, and possibly search as rogue skills you'd want and you start to get the idea.
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Post by bort on May 19, 2007 22:10:33 GMT
I was playing with the idea of a Trickery Cleric Wizard Theurge with 2 Rogue for evasion and Rogue skills. The plan was to play it as a casting Wizard with an according amount of INT, but try and get enough DEX to manage locks too (probably impossible). With the combination of Cleric and Wizard buffs I think you'd get +4 attacks a round from Divine Power and Tensers if you wanted to build it as a melee char.. (though you'd lose at least one attack per round from having a less than ideal BAB). Aside from the various obvious flaws in this idea, I'm not sure it would indeed be more fun to play than a 'normal' Rogue (the whole reason I was considering it).
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Post by chainlink on May 20, 2007 16:21:17 GMT
Both Doms assassin and my rogue/AA build did pretty well on a Stygia run last night. He was very effective against stuff you can crit whilst I stood back a lot of the time and went into rapid shot mode. Saying that I did find myself equipping a shield and running into the fray quite a few times, 140 ac with SC V and epic dodge makes you quite hard to hit. The only time you saw us running like chickens (or in fact scrabbling around in my inventory for that GS scroll I knew I had somewhere) was when some random Pit Fiends dropped in to party with us, especially the two by the barrier over the river, that was nasty!
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on May 21, 2007 3:09:41 GMT
Alright, let's look at this from another angle. If you're forming a hells party, what would you expect from a 2nd rogue before you'd take them along? You've already solved the problems of locks and traps, so what would additional rogues have to be capable of before you'd take them along? The reason I'm asking this is the hells sound tough, where everyone has to be on the ball and contribute. I've already missed a dusty run with a halfling death because there was already a rogue, and as more people get hell tagged, what's to prevent a leader to wait for another RDD/tin can/dwarf of steel/dev critter etc instead of taking a 2nd or 3rd rogue? Saying a rapier or kukri is enough, but do you really want dex based 12-20x2 damage when you can have 15-20x3 str based (as a minimum, no WM required) to 10-20x4 str based on a heavy duty tank? . it soudns to me like you're asking for a character with no weaknesses, who gets the full benefit of AA-ab, wm-crits, str tank dmg reduction/hp and rogue skills? so the answer to your inital question is yes, i believe your expectations are impossible. ... ...why not give up wm levels? using an 18-20 weapon you still get good criticals, and sneaks add to that dmg, and then you're free to take paladin maybe for boost, or monk, whatever. 7 shadow dancer levels gets you slippery mind, and 5 gives you defensive roll. I'm not asking for that. Unless you consider a halfling death overpowered (defensively it is no better and no worse than most dexers, offensively it's at the bottom of what's considered a damage dealer), what I'm looking for is something similar except with high enough saves to tackle the hells, and while I've seen suggestions for quite a few different strategies, they all still seem to require BUR races to properly work. I've played too many online games where certain classes were considered inferior and shunned when it came to groups. In as challenging an environment as the hells, where a group can't afford to drag a character, I can see this ugly aspect of online gaming rearing its head in the near future, and am trying to avoid becoming a victim while playing what I enjoy most.
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Post by Trazik on May 21, 2007 5:56:07 GMT
Having read through thi discussion I have realized 2 things: - capable rogues truly need top gear - capable rogues truly need a BUR or UR subrace "Capable" meaning all of the things Lythe talked about in the opening thread, like (in no particular order, thedomicron ): - able to open any lock - able to find and disarm any trap - able to deal reasonable damage - able to do "big runs" rather than be chained/succored/botted in as an afterthought - able to get good saves and otherwise be hell-worthy I guess the above holds true for many, many builds. It's just that rogues are so obviuosly useful and necessary that one becomes inclined to think about making one as one of your first 2 or 3 HG characters. Just my 2 cents. Trazik
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Post by dodrudon on May 21, 2007 6:18:50 GMT
Why would you need a UR/BUR race? All you get is maybe a few points extra damage, +2 or 3 skill rolls (that can easily be made up in other ways), etc, etc....
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