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Post by Mister Pin on Dec 7, 2014 1:05:49 GMT
I really enjoyed playing my monk staffy, and was working up to get my first demi for it when the nerf hit. It was hard enough trying to keep the imms/buffs up to snuff, let alone that it was a glass cannon. But the damage output was oh so my satisfying. I wasn't always at the top, but it was GOOD. After said nerf i just put it up, and there it has sat. . . . Someone a while back on the last posting about this said that - not quoting- as i did not look it up, that after 80th level and demi 2 it was just great- or something to that effect. But when i found my toon lying dead more often because i can't kill them as fast and just get "swamped" with mobs, it was just too frustrating to play it any more, let alone even try and get it to demi x1. Ah well. Another mothballed toon. Maybe i'll break it out and do LL's for kicks.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 7, 2014 1:48:27 GMT
Who are you competing against on your staffmaster? Not a 2h barb, CoT, damage pally, sorc, wizard, BFM (tank or caster) pariah or fighter if you are rarely outdamaged. I know that's gonna come across as an attack or being a jerk, but come on man, really?
IMO flurry is bad. A potential -10% chance to land most of your attacks for one extra attack? In my 7+ years on this mod I have only ever used flurry to test it...after about 2 weeks I came to the conclusion it wasnt worth it, at all. And that to mitigate losing a 2h damage bonus? Wouldn't come remotely close, even if you removed the -2 penalty.
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Post by leid on Dec 7, 2014 2:03:01 GMT
If you're rarely outdamaged on your staffmaster, yet my 2x BFM tank can outdamage the best staffmaster on the server, i'd hate to see the people you run with.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 7, 2014 2:09:40 GMT
Suppose it depends on your build. If you don't have HS splash on your staff monk, it's going to be a 14.3% increase in damage, if you do have HS splash it's only an 11.1% increase in damage. Those aren't insignificant numbers, though they do depend heavily on the assumption that your AB is high enough to make the -2 penalty negligible. The point is it's a lot better than not having it. Would be a heck of a lot better if we managed to convert the combat feats (power attack, expertise, flurry, rapid shot, etc.) into simtool commands so that they didn't end every time you left combat, but I guess that's a conversation for another day.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 7, 2014 2:21:08 GMT
Suppose it depends on your build. If you don't have HS splash on your staff monk, it's going to be a 14.3% increase in damage, if you do have HS splash it's only an 11.1% increase in damage. Those aren't insignificant numbers, though they do depend heavily on the assumption that your AB is high enough to make the -2 penalty negligible. The point is it's a lot better than not having it. Would be a heck of a lot better if we managed to convert the combat feats (power attack, expertise, flurry, rapid shot, etc.) into simtool commands so that they didn't end every time you left combat, but I guess that's a conversation for another day. Citations and math needed.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 7, 2014 2:45:44 GMT
8/7 attacks, 10/9 attacks. That's all the math I did. But again, flurry in its current state doesn't work for non-fists/kamas and even then it's not as useful as it could be.
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Post by tank on Dec 7, 2014 4:09:29 GMT
If you're rarely outdamaged on your staffmaster, yet my 2x BFM tank can outdamage the best staffmaster on the server, i'd hate to see the people you run with. I don't recall this run, I haven't played my SM in a long time!
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 7, 2014 4:46:45 GMT
And here I was just going to ignore any comment claiming that one particular player is the best on the server at any particular role.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 7, 2014 5:27:53 GMT
Your math does not take into account -10 percent to your other attacks, which is significant.
As far as best on the server, in seven years I have not seen a staffmaster outperform, or equal, stick's play of that role. Make of it what you will.
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Post by leid on Dec 7, 2014 5:52:17 GMT
If you're rarely outdamaged on your staffmaster, yet my 2x BFM tank can outdamage the best staffmaster on the server, i'd hate to see the people you run with. I don't recall this run, I haven't played my SM in a long time! Exactly
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 7, 2014 5:53:32 GMT
Depends on your AB. If your AB is 94, sure it's gonna make a difference, but even then only really on your last 4 or 5 attacks out of 10. If you're rocking like 104? Not really. Maybe a -10% chance to hit on your last attack, but that's it. Everything else you'd prolly need a one to miss anyway.
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Post by Torin on Dec 7, 2014 9:42:32 GMT
If you're rarely outdamaged on your staffmaster, yet my 2x BFM tank can outdamage the best staffmaster on the server, i'd hate to see the people you run with. That build has my interest. You go 2h or sword/board? Any hints?
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 7, 2014 10:04:57 GMT
That build has my interest. You go 2h or sword/board? Any hints? wrong thread for that torin.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 7, 2014 10:23:01 GMT
Depends on your AB. If your AB is 94, sure it's gonna make a difference, but even then only really on your last 4 or 5 attacks out of 10. If you're rocking like 104? Not really. Maybe a -10% chance to hit on your last attack, but that's it. Everything else you'd prolly need a one to miss anyway. Most monks at 60 with a bur sub are going to have mid to upper 90's at best. Generally you see 96, to maybe 98. (don't forget that fist monks do not get CW ab bonus) 104 is not possible for 95%+ of monk builds, and in order to get it you would be tanking your offstat badly. The best I could manage was 103 with 13 levels of WM to get 2 bonus AB and 17 BAB pre epic. It had 40 dex at DD with 14's. It was the only build that managed that up till that point. In the hells where conceal > ac the -2 isn't too bad for a build like that, but for a lesser AB monk it is noticeable. In the abyss it's just not viable because AC is higher. I bolded part of your quote for emphasis; an extra 10% miss chance on half of my attacks per round is not even remotely worth one extra attack. The main reason you increase your ab is to make those last 5 attacks hit...not the first few. Taking two steps back with flurry for one more attack is not the way to do it. Edit incorrect
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Post by kaezar on Dec 7, 2014 15:54:01 GMT
I started to come back a few months ago and am now regularly playing on HG again. When I came back I found out about the 2h balancing and the Qstaff nerf. I understood the former, but was really bummed about the latter, and when I played the monk I cringed. But the real problem was the staffmasters. Recently we did an azz 1-3 with spcleezard on his staffy, and leid on his tank BFM. Over the course of the run it ended up being 355k~ to 340k~...the 2x, no prince win bfm tank outdamaged the 7x 5 prince win geared to the teeth staffmaster. Pretty sure there was at least a 5+ level difference (turns out it was 12 levels) between the two as well. We were all pretty surprised to say the least. No disrespect to leid, he's a great builder and player, but this should not have been possible. Am I wrong? As far as staffmonks go...well they don't. They are a dead archetype, in every sense of the word. A monk would be better off going 1h nunchuk and torch over Qstaff. It would give more damage/stats/imms and add an augable item slot. A dex fist monk would do the exact same damage as my staffmonk does now, (literally within 2 damage per hit) and a str variant would easily surpass him. Well, Bazukar, sorry, but my experience doesn't gel with yours. unless things have changed on the last 4 or 5 months. To start, the BFM outdamaging everybody on Azz 1-3. Are you kidding me? OF COURSE it outdamaged everybody, and I'll give you the reason in 2 words: Viper Trees. Any decent BFM - tank or otherwise - will outdamage anybody on that particular run just from the damage s/he can do on azz 1 against the trees, and even on the other runs there are plenty of fire-weak critters. If you can avoid healing paralthrees on part 3, you are golden on damage. So no aspersion on staffy damage in that case - it is just a case of a run uniquely suited to bfm's. Staffys are still pretty well on damage. They are not head and shoulders above the other non-barb tanks as they used to be, but a decently build, well played staffy can still vie for the top damage spot. Which is as it should be, imo. Be able to vie for it, to be guaranteed the top slot. Because imo, if any class/quasi/combe is guaranteed the top slot, there you can see a handy-dandy cantidate for the nerfbat. As for the staff monk - I do have 3x one - yes, i think they were unnecessarily caught up on the staffmaster nerf. It happens, it was a way to do it spending the minimum of coding time. I proposed that monks able to use quarterstaff as a monk weapon be allowed to use it as a double weapon - or something like that, it was some time I go so I forget. As that would require monk 20, I still think it may be a viable solution. Maybe it is something we may revisit - after limbo is in. Take care Kaezar
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