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Post by chirality on Dec 9, 2014 20:02:36 GMT
This is extremely interesting. I'd simply love to see these calculations and logs and curves and baselines. This is so cool. It's just really amazing to see people so interesting in helping develop this game. What an awesome thread. I really hope Funky takes a look at this VERY IMPORTANT BALANCE ISSUE soon and begins instructing bazukar on how to experimentally verify his theorycrafting (which by all accounts is TOP NOTCH just like the uber dmglogs provided by other TOP NOTCH players who therefore provide MATH TO DETERMINE WHAT THE BEST PLAYER AND BUILD AND CLASS IS. I'm very sorry to have trolled earlier, I was just in a bad mood, after reading how enthusiastic these players are to devote their time and energy to improving their !@#$canned toons providing everyone else with a better play experience by improving !@#$canned classes, now I realize the error of my ways. You're right, it was totally out of line for me to have provided a quote that specifically addressed the issue at hand, even so far as to admit that he'd rather make a fist monky prolly but staff monk isn't broken or weak, again it has THE SAME !@#$ DAMAGE OUTPUT IT ALWAYS DID BEFORE THE 2H EDIT WAS ADDED, and fellow uberplayer leid admits that his staffmonk reliably outdamages most other tanks he plays with; and importantly, to point out that logs mean little due to the variables involved; so basically we're left with "omg we hate raj for personal reasons, but anyway he's wrong and you only quoted him cuz you worship him, the quote was totally unrelated to the subject of 2h qstaff nerf". And as for staffmaster, the only actual "evidence" of THIS post-nerf 2h staffuser as being "broken" is coming from people who complain that they are worse than barbs (who should have had the 2h dmg removed as well and players like "evilraj" advised to do but, just like sorc bonus spells/channeling, this inherently broken class feature (shapestrong) obviously is so pleasing that it can never be removed or nerfed out of existence; just accept it. Yeah, no !@#$ sherlock, your failquasi will never measure up to barbarian: barb is broken, sorc is broken, get over it, it evidently will never change, stop wasting your time and breath comparing things that obviously are not now, never have been, and never will be on equal footing. The only thing more sadly inbred than this thread is the runs from which your damage logs are derived. This is such a joke; in the past bazukar claimed that his toon did less dmg "now" than "before the original 2h nerf was even added" which I addressed at the time, but since evidently the subtlety was missed: did you ever JUST ONCE consider that OTHER FACTORS could actually have something to do with log dmg? Since comparing pre-2h-bonus toon to post-nerf-bonus-removed toon clearly doesn't reflect anything about the edit itself (zero is still zero). Maybe you just suck more at playing the game now? I mean this is just MY gut instinct, but MY gut instinct says that it's a "bad move" to totally ignore or brush aside as inconsequential the multitude of factors dictating "log dmg" and instead focusing on "these logs with my friends show that class X is better than class Y because my pro friends are without question the godz of the game and we did 5000 runs with each player "best in class" on their personal role of classes X, Y, and Z, and Y sucked so bad, but all other thngs were equal, yes every other !@#$ thing was absolutely the same, so clearly the log results show only class balance itself and therefore is a valuable piece of evidence upon which to construct this balance issue. Speaking of holding raj up as an authority (disingenuous? mmm might want to look that one up), eh well since your entire argument is founded upon holding yourself and your friends up as authorities, I dunno I figured it was pretty much right in line with the thread content
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Post by tank on Dec 9, 2014 20:11:06 GMT
I feel like we should address more serious matters that are game breaking, like karsus(and why shifters dont have it), back to back immutes, and stacking possums!
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Post by leid on Dec 9, 2014 21:18:28 GMT
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Post by bazukar on Dec 9, 2014 22:02:41 GMT
So are you going to actually contribute anything meaningful to this thread besides verbal diarrhea while trying to score points on a messageboard where no one takes you seriously anyway?
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 9, 2014 22:12:13 GMT
Did you actually read anything he wrote? Or did you just ignore it because he posted it? There are plenty of good points raised by what he said, all of which I'm sure you ignored. Does Bale like to troll? Sure. But I would consider his trolling FAR from meaningless. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean that any or all of it is wrong. If you're not willing to listen to opposing arguments, then your thread doesn't belong here. It belongs in the Oubliette.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 9, 2014 22:36:53 GMT
You mean the antagonistic strawman argument that has been taken apart in other threads already by myself and others? I'm supposed to ignore the hostility, flamebait and clear ignorance of his post and take his viewpoint seriously? Other people that disagree with me have come into this thread and I have had no problems with it, and have engaged with them civilly. His post has zero in common with theirs and I seriously question your defense of his trolling and suggesting that this post be moved to the oubliette because I refuse to take the bait. If he wants to contribute to this thread he is more than welcome to, but I'm not going to waste my time with someone so obviously focused on turning this into a flamefest.
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Post by tank on Dec 9, 2014 23:07:20 GMT
You mean the antagonistic strawman argument that has been taken apart in other threads already by myself and others? I'm supposed to ignore the hostility, flamebait and clear ignorance of his post and take his viewpoint seriously? Other people that disagree with me have come into this thread and I have had no problems with it, and have engaged with them civilly. His post has zero in common with theirs and I seriously question your defense of his trolling and suggesting that this post be moved to the oubliette because I refuse to take the bait. If he wants to contribute to this thread he is more than welcome to, but I'm not going to waste my time with someone so obviously focused on turning this into a flamefest. could you please calm down, we're trying to solve some issues here.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 9, 2014 23:22:57 GMT
Alright, then let's translate his post, starting with the 3rd paragraph:
1) Staff monk damage is the exact same as it was before the 2H bonus was added, therefore it hasn't been "nerfed."
2) It's foolish to expect a staffmaster to match the damage of a barbarian. Barbarian needs to be nerfed, but that's not going to happen, so deal with it.
3) Saying that your pre-buff staff monk did more damage than your current "nerfed" doesn't make sense since they're effectively the same.
4) Logs are only an indication of damage and not over all usefulness of a character, so it's pointless to use your logs from your particular group of players as a basis for argument.
5) Your claims contain inherent bias based on the fact that you view your group of players as an authority on elite play-level.
There's nothing strawman about his arguments. They're formidable concerns. Are they correct? Not necessarily, but that's why you read it, interpret it and discuss, rather than respond in a similar manner. You COULD respond to him in the following manner:
1) Since other classes were strengthened by the 2H bonus damage, this was effectively a nerf to quarterstaff wielders who, while they still technically do the same damage, do less now by comparison.
2) You could explain that just because something is unlikely to change doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
3) See #1.
4) Agree with him on principle but suggest that meleers don't have any other real metric to measure their usefulness, assuming their not already lying flat on their faces for half the run.
5) Provide examples of other runs you've done, with different groups of players in which you've seen similar results. Retract stupid claims that your group of players are the very best at their particular classes (it's simply not true and just makes you look arrogant).
OR..... you could just pretend that he contributes nothing worthwhile to the conversation. The point is, if you want to discuss this, then discuss it. Reasonably (and no, I'm not suggesting that Bale is discussing it in a manner which is purely reasonable - he's simply fond of this *particular* way of his expressing his view point). There's a lot of back-and-forth in this thread with very little progress. It's beginning to deteriorate into senselessness.
(EDIT: Aside from tank, who is of course only here for the fireworks.)
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 10, 2014 0:58:52 GMT
Threaders BFMs (DSMs to a lesser extent) Damage sorc/wiz Herald Pariah Of course no amount of damage-capacity testing is going to determine actual usefulness on a run, but I guess that's sort of beside the point for the purposes of this discussion. Those are casters, and a completely different story. Don´t fall for that trap and make the mistake comparing those with tanks, especially with the vast differences between the tanks when it comes to damage alone as is right now. To give you a comparison: last Nessus run I did with fallen on a COT 2-handing halberd and me on a DD with wm/ftr splash dual-wielding the DD-Axes. COT: 180k damage (not sure but definitely demi, level well in the 70s) DD: 150k damage (5x demi, level 80, prince win) Both using optimal crafted and buffed weapons and practically hunting only to tank the important mobs like malebranches, pit fiends, serpents and of course loose mobs that hunted the casters. But since u mentioned it: the sorc did around 390k and the shifter stole most kills. And to put it bluntly: those numbers are laughable for that tanks and levels they have. My DDs defences are too weak, especially since he dual-wields. And that low damage-output will get him killed for sure over time, as I have experienced it often enough in the abyss. (balor = dom = dead in 2-3 rounds at best; or 2-3 inflicting mobs and you go down from 150% + to 100% - immunity in one round, which is impossible to counter or restore in time = dead). And I did that kind of damage also when it was just level 60! And how can you even take posts like those of chirality seriously? Even if there is a possible good point hidden somewhere in the flood of his blabbering (which is intentionally only made to make ppl. like you fall for it). I do not see how one could make it any more obvious that this is nothing but a troll, just like tanks posts. The only thing that happens is that they blow up a good discussion, just like so often before. They have issues with something/someone, but it is not this thread nor topic at all!
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 10, 2014 1:08:26 GMT
Yeah, that's why I listed them separately. They're part of the damage discussion but not part of the "melee damage" discussion. Also, those numbers seem REALLY low. I'm pretty sure my 2-hander CoT topped 400k last Nessus. But, from what you're saying, it sounds like your casters were doing a MUCH better job. If casters do their job then we're only left with PFs, ichors, etc etc. to kill and even then, it's not like they can't kill those as well - they just need to use up precious spell slots to do so more slowly. The whole reason this "zomg XXXX tank doesn't do enough damage" discussion is even happening is that, as it's always been, even the greatest meleer is going to pale in comparison to a mediocre caster.
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 10, 2014 1:42:00 GMT
Sorry had to edit my post a bit more. Well that casters do in general more damage (aoe damage and death spells take the cake) is fine. I don´t care if they do a ton more, it is there party role. What I am looking at is my direct damage against a mob, that might be critical to beat down fast as a melee character. And even there casters often to always beat me on a tank. And that is not good. To my opinion the problem lies deeper in the way the mod and mobs behaviour works. I cannot draw and keep aggro of mobs on my tank in general. If I reposition for any reason, they immediately reconsider there target and go practically instantly for the squishiest in the group. Even with draw foes active and direct taunting. A high damage dealer melee character solves that problem, by killing the mobs he is having aggro on in a fairly fast way. Then he is off chasing the once roaming free, while I will have 2 more minutes to beat on the mobs around me. In worst case I die in between as well, because I have too much damage coming in = lot´s of trouble for the group.
On the other side: If I make let´s say a paladin 2-hander, that goes straight for maxing out damage (smiter with strength focus) and not the rapier wit cheese but let´s say a great sword. His defences are very weak (low ac and low to no soak ability, low physical imms). That toon would do about the same amount maybe even more damage as a barb. Is it a viable toon though? Hardly, because to the mobs logic you are considered easy to hit and kill. So instead of a tank-tank keeping aggro while I beat the mobs down (yeah team-play), I become automatically the main target. In hells you might get away with that, in the abyss you are toast.
If you keep it as it is, then it all comes back to barbs, who do good damage and are sturdy. The mod does practically not allow to focus in one direction (defence or offence). You have to have both, or you will fail your tank job in the end. That is why people always grave for higher dps on there melee's and I do as well.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 10, 2014 1:53:46 GMT
I think we're all agreed that barb needs to have one or the other nerfed. Either it needs to have the 20% removed entirely, or it has to lose its % phys immunes, etc etc. I've found in my experience that staffmasters provide a very good balance of offense and defense. I know the whole thread is about how staffers of all kinds aren't strong enough but let's be honest - whether or not a staffmaster can always top the damage charts, he IS able to do considerable target-specific mega-damage when he needs to, with 90% conceal, and nearing 130 ac. Now are they heavily gear/demi/level-dependent? Sure. But they still can achieve a pretty good balance. Is it as broken as barbs? Not at all, but I think that's kind of the point - it's NOT broken. It's balanced. Similarly I find paladins incredibly balanced, as I do with CoTs. Heck, if paladins and CoTs didn't exist, blackguards would probably be balanced too. But I think you get my point, since it's similar in nature to the one you're trying to make.
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 10, 2014 2:51:28 GMT
Actually I think you do not see the point right: Barbs are best practice and show how it should be made, not the other way around. But instead anything that is remotely good (and not even on par with a barb) gets destroyed, not adjusted or balanced, but flat out destroyed. From 50% to 0% is not a balance but a break. And no the damage is not good enough no matter how you put it. It was not before the 50% and it certainly is not now. Or try this: go to thids (to pull out just one example) on a tank and on a caster. See if you really believe after that tanks need another slap in the face!
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Post by bazukar on Dec 10, 2014 7:10:21 GMT
Alright, then let's translate his post, starting with the 3rd paragraph: Yeah that's much better than strawmen and ad hominems. Too bad it required a third party for "translation". Ok I guess I can do this again, since you decided to wade in. Let's start with what I agree with. This is correct. This commentary was pulled from a thread in which I misinterpreted a statement that said Qstaves were going to be changed to 1 handed weapons, and I thought they were losing the 1.5 str mod bonus. I was incorrect. But kudos to him for going back to march, bringing up something I was incorrect on and applying it to a topic where it has no relevance in order to discredit me. What's that called again? I agree. I agree. Let's move on. Where did I ever say or imply anything of the sort? Someone has to do top damage, why not a barbarian? I don't think barb really needs a nerf either. But on another note, why is it foolish to want (not expect) a staffy to do damage comparable to a barb? That's the role of the class; damage. I have always been a proponent of bringing classes up, not lowering the bar down to the lowest common denominator. Stuff like adding AoE damage to shadowdancers shadowstep, beefing XDD breath attacks, adding bleed damage to dual wield dexers. But I guess I just have to "deal with it" Wait what? Survivability through AC or soak is a measureable metric, rare immunities, or absolute immunities like paladins, CoTs, XDDs, or monks can get, utility from knockdown, disarm or other combat feats. Vanilla called shot is amazing on mariliths, goristro, bueroza, alkaliths and orthons just to name a few. If we had been talking about the usefulness of characters that would be a point. But we weren't. We were discussing damage, so the logs are actually pertinent. As far as "your particular players" we'll get to that in a moment. They are. The same as sheinja, UT, or anyone else that regularly runs abos/ely and has completed multiple prince runs. No more, no less. Once again, as far as "my group of players" we'll get to that. I did. I mentioned greven, who was not a DT, and that it was across more than 1 run...the azz numbers were simply a single example. But I guess I should have mentioned everyone else as well? Every run? Every Aboleth and elysium? Prince fights and pelors? Malcanthet and Pale Night? Fallen, Lazer, Crazy, Zealot, KE, Vichya, Shaqua, Raj...do I need a complete list? As far as my stupid claims regarding the best at a class (one single person btw) being false...I stated it was my opinion...and how would you know anyway? You've never run with us. Where does your information come from? This right here is what I was trying to avoid. This pointless back and forth bickering with thinly veiled ad hominem attacks and no substance. I was respectful, stated my viewpoints, and engaged those that disagreed with me in polite debate, and was actually looking forward to more viewpoints. Debate in good faith, or don't at all.
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Post by Xiayu on Dec 10, 2014 8:50:48 GMT
If you want to compare how good a tank can be, check 'Damage Done' to important targets (such as PFs, Males, etc) instead of just checking 'Total Damage Done' on the run.
Logs can be very misleading and I know too many tanks that just love focusing on trash to see big numbers at the end ^^
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