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Post by bazukar on Dec 10, 2014 9:04:30 GMT
If you want to compare how good a tank can be, check 'Damage Done' to important targets (such as PFs, Males, etc) instead of just checking 'Total Damage Done' on the run. Logs can be very misleading and I know too many tanks that just love focusing on trash to see big numbers at the end ^^ QFT This is a discussion we have had before in call, and it was always considered a game to see if you could catch a tank trying to pick off a mane when a marilith or balor was nearby.
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Post by fallenwizard on Dec 10, 2014 9:12:49 GMT
To give you a comparison: last Nessus run I did with fallen on a COT 2-handing halberd and me on a DD with wm/ftr splash dual-wielding the DD-Axes. COT: 180k damage (not sure but definitely demi, level well in the 70s) DD: 150k damage (5x demi, level 80, prince win) Both using optimal crafted and buffed weapons and practically hunting only to tank the important mobs like malebranches, pit fiends, serpents and of course loose mobs that hunted the casters. But since u mentioned it: the sorc did around 390k and the shifter stole most kills. And to put it bluntly: those numbers are laughable for that tanks and levels they have. Couple points on this. - my CoT is closing to 4 year old build (posted 3½ years ago) predates lvl 80, 2hand bonus, leg wep spec etc - Diremace user with WM splash to crittable inflicters fast (like hamatula). I made a quick test build yesterday that does 80% more physical damage / round (sure weapon damage tones down the difference to propably around 20-30% total damage increase/round). It doesnt have "perfect crafted weps" it has lazy crafted weapon (cold/acid/sonic) for hitting everything that doesnt heal from those and then had another one with fire/cold/sonic for killing ichors more quickly, only used for last map of nessus. That build (or its weapons) definetly do not present the power of the class. - Those numbers dont tell you anything, other than the run was fast and damage widely spread. As an example of damage spread. My pariah has done nessus scoring 2mill damage, then another with 1mill but usually it is 350-500k. What does comparing those numbers give you? Totaly nothing. But when adding that first number is from solo, 2nd is from 4man and the average is from 10 man you get better perspective. Also what comes to pointing out Baz's sorc damage, casters do tons of aoe. Do you have data on damage dealt to things that we hit as tanks? I'd guess pf/maleb/ichor/worm damage is much more even vs the sorc. Generaly speaking only the damage to the critters who posses threat to the party is important. Rest of it is just there for having fun watching those 600+ crits pop up from hitting barbezu, but when I can go afk for an hour that come back to see me being full hp while pack of barbezus been hitting me entire time, counting the 10k damage I get from killing them in same time than hitting 2k on a PF is simply why logs are biased. This is also why usually assasin/ranger damage appears to be decent, is because those do exactly that, that's their job to clear the thrash, but it boosts up their log performance compared to other tanks. I've been reading this thread couple of times, propably missed a post or two, but honestly, I dont see it getting anywhere. Semner is only staff-member posting and as far as I know he isnt even in dev team, just DM-team who ensure the real time gaming goes smooth. Ofcourse discussion for Funky & Co. to read isn't bad, but this sort of discussion is propably not the best way to get your case heard. If I were the admin I propably would lock it and not even bother reading it with serious thought. Personaly my take on the subject is that 2hand bonus all together is/was bad call. It didnt really open up new build types, just empower the alrdy existing ones, as per Funky posted at inital release of it "Qstaff get the bonus for the time being, but we'll keep an eye on it", or something in that manner. I mean honestly, those who alrdy could use 2hand wep were using them and those who couldn't still wont. Par paladin rap wit as an exception (well and maybe the rogue morningstar, but wasn't the sneak attack multiplication disabled alrdy?). So let's just remove the bonuses all together.
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Post by ragemon on Dec 10, 2014 10:02:35 GMT
5) Provide examples of other runs you've done, with different groups of players in which you've seen similar results. Retract stupid claims that your group of players are the very best at their particular classes (it's simply not true and just makes you look arrogant). And how many times have you been to abyss? Once? Carried every time on your lol-fail tanks? It's very important to make the distinction of how elite your group is, otherwise you fall into the trap of thinking noob builds are good. Also, claiming that paladins are balanced and barbarians are in need of a nerf is hilarious. Your [censored] makes me want to shoot you multiple times in the head.
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 10, 2014 12:28:28 GMT
Solid points fallen, but I play my tanks to do mainly hunting the dangerous mobs like PFs, malbs, elites/randoms and of course serpents. What I have seen you did the same, and yes your tank could do better with the upgrades you mentioned. That is the reason I posted flat damage numbers, because we were comparable.
But you are right, for a more exact comparison one would have to go into more details: amount of attacks, damage per hit, hit-rate and so on. But that will also not necessarily help, because you need the exact same weapons (or at least crafted the same way) and a comparable play-style (and not lemure hunting for instance) like it was in our case. Besides that, I am using well crafted specific weapons and had higher level and pretty much optimal gear, and still had less damage than your cot (outdated or not!). And when super ichiors appear you see me running, while you tanked them head on.
I admit that those numbers are by no means perfect, but my experience is the same over many runs and not just that single one I pulled out. And over the long run this is still a good indicator. Next time I´ll just leave any numbers off and just plain claim....
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 10, 2014 15:02:27 GMT
5) Provide examples of other runs you've done, with different groups of players in which you've seen similar results. Retract stupid claims that your group of players are the very best at their particular classes (it's simply not true and just makes you look arrogant). And how many times have you been to abyss? Once? Carried every time on your lol-fail tanks? It's very important to make the distinction of how elite your group is, otherwise you fall into the trap of thinking noob builds are good. Also, claiming that paladins are balanced and barbarians are in need of a nerf is hilarious. Your [censored] makes me want to shoot you multiple times in the head. Neither that kind of language, nor death threats, are tolerated on these forums. As this account's ip is unique, it is either a brand new player, or someone who created the account for the purpose of trolling. Either way, it has been banned. Funky
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 10, 2014 15:58:27 GMT
It is a shame this thread has just been so full or trolling because I think the subject is worth a look.
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Post by Restos on Dec 10, 2014 17:40:45 GMT
This thread is unreadable.
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Post by tank on Dec 10, 2014 18:03:41 GMT
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Post by chirality on Dec 10, 2014 19:11:07 GMT
That's obviously nonsense, the only thing that matters is that this is the gospel straight from the mouth of the uberpros. This thread could be revisited in the future, once baz accesses his old hard drive and offers the dozens of logs for us to dissect and analyze to determine if in fact there's any mathematical summation lending credibility to the concept of re-applying some complicated scaling % bonus dmg for 2h staffusers that are, respectively, 1) entire quasiclass designed and anti-exploit-ed into forcing you to use a staff in the first place and 2) vanilla uberacmechanic/defensive based class that can afford to use a staff with far less sacrifice than most tanks. I'd like to see an argument constructed solidly to demonstrate why this nerf was too extreme WITHOUT involving, let alone relying upon, barbarian. I really fail to understand why you believe it'd somehow be advantageous or productive to come up with some algorithmic % dmg application for staffusers. Wouldn't the simpler solution--well, Plan A is "not give a !@#$ and move on with your life", but I thought up a Plan B too--be to properly remove it from barbs, thereby deleting the ugly apple in the equation (stafferz got nerfed but barb who can still use shield gets still precious 20%? that's lame bro). If anything "must" be changed, then just leave the 2h dmg to classes who actually use a weapon 2h, for one thing, and aren't designed to facilitate losing offhand slot, for another. I don't get why the nerf failed to get the job done, frankly. This would be like an edit granting (just go with it) +2 extra attack to all dual wielders, but then it gets nerfed so monks no longer get it, but rangers still get +1 attack, despite the fact that they are virtually pushed to dualwield by default and lose nothing by doing so. Then monks complain why they get no bonus and ranger still gets partial bonus; obviously it's wrong and should be corrected, but fixing it properly would be (Plan A=remove all of it completely as per fallen), removing the ranger +1 attack (/barb 20%), not adding monk +1 attack (/staff whatever%). Surely the taste of something delicious makes it only the more depressing once it's removed, which is what's motivating the whole thread, but really why would RE applying the bonus make anything better? Also, you missed the other important point of my rajquote, which was that you don't have to convince me or any of these other idiots, you have to convince Funky; and guess what the very next post after the rajquote was? Raj pretty much summarized my view on this. Regardless of "out of context" quotes or not, subtracting the XR angle from any of this still holds water; or did you think that Funky was trapped in the Far Realm during this time and a doppelganger was the one responsible for the staff 2h nerf, which Funky had no involvement in? Considering that, hurp, "someone" actually removed the staff 2hbonus in the first place, don't you think you ought to try a little bit harder than that (cuz overall not very impressive logictrain here) if you expect to convince him that his nerf should be repealed? Otherwise this whole thing is just hot air and popcorn show, and perfect trollfodder (you're welcome for the ratingsboost btw), but no worries, every single viewer already knew this within 5 posts into the thread.
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 11, 2014 5:39:40 GMT
The biggest issue with that is, that funky practically never plays. And he even believes in his dex bard lol (no offence to you bud). How can you make someone, so detached from the server reality realize and understand when something is off with a class. I mean what is not easy to understand if a barb does repeatedly 600k damage and a staffy 250k on the same run, while fulfilling the exact same roll as damage dealers? You need 100s of logs to understand the flaw in that? And theoretical numbers mean little in the end as you can see all so perfectly on the GI. Great idea and concept, but it fails the server reality altogether.
And it was asked to adjust the damage bonus to 20% not back to 50% (which is agreed to be too much). Practically the same as a barb gets, to get at least a carrot for making a class that can be out of the fight in one shot (no matter if you have level 80 cheese and XXX-demi iterations) as I have pointed out. But instead you gain some serious alternatives and have better balance between those main damage dealers. And if the barb is by default thought of to be THE melee damage dealer, so bit it, that is fine. As long as others are not becoming obsolete in comparison as it is right now. And no there is no need to prove that with logs. Go make a staffy and see for yourself.
And regarding logs: The servers pretty much log every single thing happening. Extracting the date from that and analyse it would surely be more productive than any log posted by the players like us. But then again you still need the experienced veterans to see what it really means for that class on an actual run and not some complaining weak ones, that get out-damaged/killed on any run. While themselves do not even manage to gear there toons right, let alone building them correctly.
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Post by leid on Dec 11, 2014 8:07:31 GMT
<--------
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Post by fallenwizard on Dec 11, 2014 8:56:44 GMT
Solid points fallen, but I play my tanks to do mainly hunting the dangerous mobs like PFs, malbs, elites/randoms and of course serpents. What I have seen you did the same, and yes your tank could do better with the upgrades you mentioned. That is the reason I posted flat damage numbers, because we were comparable. But you are right, for a more exact comparison one would have to go into more details: amount of attacks, damage per hit, hit-rate and so on. But that will also not necessarily help, because you need the exact same weapons (or at least crafted the same way) and a comparable play-style (and not lemure hunting for instance) like it was in our case. Besides that, I am using well crafted specific weapons and had higher level and pretty much optimal gear, and still had less damage than your cot (outdated or not!). And when super ichiors appear you see me running, while you tanked them head on. I admit that those numbers are by no means perfect, but my experience is the same over many runs and not just that single one I pulled out. And over the long run this is still a good indicator. Next time I´ll just leave any numbers off and just plain claim.... Oh I think you misunderestod my point. My point is that I dont think even a barb would've cracked 200k on the said run, since the run was so smooth and damage spread among so many targets. What comes down to your Dwd damage vs CoT, that's really not too surprising, I mean comon, it is worse AB, less attacks and less damage per hit. Everything in equation shows CoT's superiority between those classes - damage wise. If it'd been anything different, then there'd be 3 possibly reasons: 1. Dwd playes better 2. Dwd goes after trash 3. CoT is dead/unable to deal damage cus weaker defence Since none of those points were met (apart from propably point 1 being in your favor due my long absence) the damage between the classes is what it is supposed to be. How ever, those damages arent viable to be combared to a) sorc overall damage (still is for sorc damage vs baddies) or b) any other nessus run even if it is with your dwd, since rest of the party is different. I mean, if this thread was about Dwd damage, then the numbers you pointed out would be valuable input (how ever we'd also want to see the damage of other "tanks" for the run, not just vs CoT). What the numbers do tell is that CoT did roughly 20% more than Dwd, 8 apr vs 7 = is what, 14% increase? Then adding divine wrath damage for ~ 15phys/hit as well as CoT overally getting higher str for ab/phys damage. The 20% difference actually sounds very balanced offence wise. Then it comes down to breaking down defence/utility of the two classes to see if they are worth giving up on 20% offence in the comparison. Funnily thou, since my CoT build it is so old, it was quite good match to compare very similar kind of builds of Dwd vs CoT.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 11, 2014 15:15:18 GMT
The biggest issue with that is, that funky practically never plays. And he even believes in his dex bard lol (no offence to you bud). How can you make someone, so detached from the server reality realize and understand when something is off with a class. I mean what is not easy to understand if a barb does repeatedly 600k damage and a staffy 250k on the same run, while fulfilling the exact same roll as damage dealers? You need 100s of logs to understand the flaw in that? And theoretical numbers mean little in the end as you can see all so perfectly on the GI. Great idea and concept, but it fails the server reality altogether. And it was asked to adjust the damage bonus to 20% not back to 50% (which is agreed to be too much) If your log numbers above were accurate and indicative of the actual difference in power of those two classes then that would mean barbs do 240% of the damage staffmasters do. If that were the case not even a 100% increase in staffmaster damage would put them on that level. I did the math. A staffmaster does equivalent per hit non-crit damage compared to a wm/hs splash barbarian. Per round the barb does around 40% more damage IF you include crits and if that barb is using a halberd. It seems you've either grossly exaggerated the disparity in damage or, if your numbers are accurate, then something really wrong is happening with your runs. That being said based on the math you could possibly argue for *some* increase to staffmaster damage but the problem isn't near as big as you're making it out to be.
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 12, 2014 0:15:41 GMT
If your log numbers above were accurate and indicative of the actual difference in power of those two classes then that would mean barbs do 240% of the damage staffmasters do. If that were the case not even a 100% increase in staffmaster damage would put them on that level. I did the math. A staffmaster does equivalent per hit non-crit damage compared to a wm/hs splash barbarian. Per round the barb does around 40% more damage IF you include crits and if that barb is using a halberd. It seems you've either grossly exaggerated the disparity in damage or, if your numbers are accurate, then something really wrong is happening with your runs. That being said based on the math you could possibly argue for *some* increase to staffmaster damage but the problem isn't near as big as you're making it out to be. So you are pulling out one of the weakest forms of barbs and compare it to a staffy. Even with (what ever it is you are really doing) math you see that that barb does around 40% more damage overall as a staff-master who can choose optimal mega damage against the critter he is beating on. And you still want to tell me you do not see the problem?
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 12, 2014 0:31:04 GMT
Wait so suddenly a WM/HS splash barbarian is one of the weakest forms of a barbarian? And yeah, I do see that barb does more damage against crittable enemies. The math I did was taking into account two full buffed weapons, the crit ranges, attacks per round, and crit multipliers of both. Now, if you take into account that neither one of these two classes should be prioritizing crittable enemies anyway, and assume something like 50% of their attacks will be against non-crittables, then the percentage bonus that barbarians do relative to staffmasters decreases to around 20%. And no, that doesn't take into account the circumstantial bonus that staffies have over barbarians in that they can optimize their megadamage, nor does it take into account the difficulty in weapon-swapping on a Shapestrong barbarian. If you'd like me to run the numbers with a different barb build, I can do that easily enough. Of course, all of this is more or less beside the point, a 40% difference is a FAR CRY from the 140% difference you cited, which was my reason for posting.
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