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Post by leid on Dec 12, 2014 1:44:01 GMT
So what you're saying is that the experience of veteran players has no bearing, because your own math, which I'm sure is completely objective and irrefutable, just so happens to agree with your "argument"? It's too bad for you, though, that the real world doesn't always work out the way your calculator and obviously absurdly high intellect predict that it will.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 12, 2014 2:06:34 GMT
See, posts like this are the reason nothing productive is going to come of any kind of discussion regarding this topic. I can sit here and present you a reasonable argument, in which I made a point of being unbiased, in attempt to present a more realistic representation of the perceived problem, but you're just going to assume that for some reason I... what? Just want people to have weak toons? So I'm wearing rose-colored glasses and pretending everything's perfectly balanced?
Leid, you've made a point on a handful of occasions to go out of your way to belittle me for whatever reason. Clearly you have some issue with me, but that's a silly reason not to be able to have a rational discussion. In order to solve ANY problem, real or imagined, you first have to make an OBJECTIVE and reasoned case for the nature and scope of that problem. That's what I'm trying to do. Would I like to see my staffmaster buffed? Hell yeah. He's my oldest toon on the server. But I'm not going to sit here and make a case based on anecdotes or opinion. That's not the way to make your case.
If you're interested in actually making any kind of progress, you can set aside whatever petty squabble you imagine there to be between us and begin discussing like an adult. Maybe then anyone with any sense will look at "suggestion" threads like this for some reason other than to laugh at the scope of its stupidity.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 12, 2014 3:16:02 GMT
Go to the FO, I made a place for you guys, this is not the place
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Post by tank on Dec 12, 2014 13:20:01 GMT
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Post by woqued on Dec 12, 2014 13:42:58 GMT
A big thank you for this spreadsheet, I appreciate it a lot.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 12, 2014 14:36:30 GMT
Looks great, Tank. Was confused for a second because I didn't realize at first that the 5% miss chance was included on the attacks per round. At work so I don't have time to look at all of it but what's useful here is that you calculated damage per round against specific mobs which is much more useful than what I did which was calculate just raw damage potential. Tell me if I'm wrong but it seems like access to two physical damage types is a big part of the reason halberdiers are just plain stomping staffers in a lot of those fields.
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Post by woqued on Dec 12, 2014 14:58:28 GMT
Looks great, Tank. Was confused for a second because I didn't realize at first that the 5% miss chance was included on the attacks per round. At work so I don't have time to look at all of it but what's useful here is that you calculated damage per round against specific mobs which is much more useful than what I did which was calculate just raw damage potential. Tell me if I'm wrong but it seems like access to two physical damage types is a big part of the reason halberdiers are just plain stomping staffers in a lot of those fields. Yes, halberds are op.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 12, 2014 15:04:20 GMT
I wonder if maybe we're not a little too concerned with damage output? Don't get me wrong...I play tanks almost exclusively and I like to see big numbers too. Still, it's only one part of tanking and not really a requirement for a successful run (I mean really...haven't we been on runs where tanks do little more than rez and pickup casters?)
Moreover, increasing damage isn't the only way to "fix" an issue, especially given the number of factors that go into damage output (gear, mobs, party balance, play style, etc.). Maybe it's better to improve a staffy's defenses and make them more attractive as all-around tanks? Or maybe a nerf to barbarian's defenses to make all that damage come at a price?
The bottom line is that there's more than one way to skin a cat -- let's think outside of the box
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 12, 2014 15:09:57 GMT
tomaan you have a point that is about game balance though a little more than it is about class balance I think bringing in a 20% 2H bonus for Qstaff would be a great starting point to counter the restriction that they have been under for far too long even if the restriction does give 1H SMs a reason to live seeing as damage output is the same for them as a 2H SM.
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Post by chainlink on Dec 12, 2014 15:19:10 GMT
It is and always has been an arms race in which people will graviate towards the largest damage output weapons as this is what is most important to remove enemies as quickly as possible. Other than making all weapons have the same damage types, multipliers and crit ranges (which would effectively make people just choose the weapon they liked the appearance of) there would need to be some unique properties such as the Sai parry, Whip disarm, etc. to encourage people to use other weapons than the obvious first choices. Surely its a case of all weapons are underpowered compared to halberd and morning star (possibly scythe as well although the exotic feat you have to use and the crappy initial critcial range count against this one).
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 12, 2014 15:49:05 GMT
The fact that those numbers show a large boost from physical damage means the proposed idea of allowing 2H bonus to only apply to physical, as I read and understood an earlier suggestion, is not going to level the field very much if at all because that aspect is creating a sizable power gap.
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Post by Restos on Dec 12, 2014 16:57:21 GMT
It is and always has been an arms race in which people will graviate towards the largest damage output weapons as this is what is most important to remove enemies as quickly as possible. Other than making all weapons have the same damage types, multipliers and crit ranges (which would effectively make people just choose the weapon they liked the appearance of) there would need to be some unique properties such as the Sai parry, Whip disarm, etc. to encourage people to use other weapons than the obvious first choices. Surely its a case of all weapons are underpowered compared to halberd and morning star (possibly scythe as well although the exotic feat you have to use and the crappy initial critcial range count against this one). I remember from this other server (not comparing) they added on hit: flesh to stone to one of the most unused weapons at the time (whip). They kept doing that for underused weapons and suddenly, we had a variety of weapon usage, although the "better" designs were still used the most.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 12, 2014 19:17:25 GMT
I think that's an interesting suggestion, but I worry it might step on the toes of quasiclasses that already have on-hit bonuses. Ones that come to mind are slingers, lashes and staffmasters (who are a primary focus of this thread). I think in the past I had made a similar suggestion for bane knights but it was determined to not be worthwhile. Still an interesting and outside-the-box suggestion though.
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Post by leid on Dec 12, 2014 19:20:18 GMT
lol@thatspreadsheet
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Post by tomaan on Dec 12, 2014 20:57:40 GMT
I remember from this other server (not comparing) they added on hit: flesh to stone to one of the most unused weapons at the time (whip). They kept doing that for underused weapons and suddenly, we had a variety of weapon usage, although the "better" designs were still used the most. Now that's what I'm talking about. Maybe not FTS per se, but some other benefit/advantage that isn't necessarily tied to damage output. Great out-of-the-box idea.
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