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Post by leid on Dec 7, 2014 18:37:03 GMT
You're overestimating the BFM tank in azzagrat, kaezar. My BFM Tank is only 2x demi, no prince kills, no amazing gear. i get 5 hellballs per 2 ring rest charges in abyss, and i have less than 20 brands per rest. I sure as hell dont spam hellballs on trees, unless we get a big spawn that is worth dropping balls on that also happens to spawn them. My brands do Ok damage i guess, but the vast majority of the time, I'm just beating trees down like any other con arty tank. Point is: my bfm tank doesnt have the kind of huge, sustained fire damage that you think it does, that azz run damage was on par with the damage ive done in every other abyss run.
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Post by chirality on Dec 8, 2014 0:45:03 GMT
Wait, the nerf was directed at staffmasters? You meant staffmonk right? I thought the nerf was implemented to ruin bazukar's staffmonk (obviously cuz funky hates him amirite ) : One last thing. With the quarterstaff damage nerf I don't see much reason to build a Qstaff monk anymore. It's a defanged damagedealer that just tanks decently. I created the 22/13/5 staffmonk, got it 5x with prince wins my 2x BFM tank can outdamage the best staffmaster on the server my 3x staff monks still doesmore damage than any other melee i play with besides a good barb, so I'm still quite happy with it. ur toons r so hard bro! so you're saying staffmonks are better than staffmasters? or why should they be un-nerfed again? i guess i missed it last time this same OP by same forumname brought up the staff nerf.... didn't this already get explained nearly a year ago:Well, any other class using 2h has been toned down from 50% to 40%, not a big nerf (and still a boost over original 0%), but they give up a lot of defence for that. Staffmasters and barbarians gave up nothing for that boost, and deserved the nerfbat. Monks are quite a different matter, they mostly received a huge bump from PL granting them a great AC boost and making lot of specialized/str builds great, the 2h dmg was (big, tasty) cherry on top. Nowadays, I'd proly build a fist one, but staff ones aren't weak or broken, especially with such XR subbie designed for them. I think in the current situation most tank types if well played and geared can be viable in the end game, while it was just staffmonk or staffy or barb back in 2012/13; logs mean little and are layer/party/targeting dependant
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 8, 2014 0:58:50 GMT
Quoting TheRajah achieves nothing, Bale. It's not like he was one of the best players or builders on the server.
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Post by leid on Dec 8, 2014 1:05:39 GMT
I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't play either class anymore. That being said, I am saying staff monks are better than staffmasters. I do think it was an overnerf, though considering that neither one has either as much damage output, or defense as a barb. I'd like to see them both have their damage increased at least to current barb levels.
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Post by leid on Dec 8, 2014 1:07:49 GMT
Quoting TheRajah achieves nothing, Bale. It's not like he was one of the best players or builders on the server. In that post, Rajah refers positively to the staff monk XR race, which is absolutely horrible for any staff monk who has any idea what he's doing. So yeah, his post is pretty much meaningless.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 8, 2014 1:09:38 GMT
Kaezar, the BFM doesn't outdamage everyone, I never said or implied it. It's strange that your experience doesn't gel with mine, but that's ok, it's why we discuss things on the forums. As for the rest regarding BFM I'll let leid's post do the talking, except to disagree with you that staffies were ever head and shoulders above any 2 hand tanks except barbarians, and I stand by my original theory that the Qstaff nerf was based on skewed data.
Ah yes, chirality to the tro- err rescue with out of context quotes in order to have his fun. First off, even defanged my staffmonk outdamages people in random groups...why? Because they have 95 ab and don't craft weapons. Should the status of my class be based on that? It's why leid's staffmonk performed well in pugs. And how does rajah saying something make it The Truth or The Facts? The XR subby is pretty terrible last I checked, and there was no consensus on moving it to be better. Nowhere have I ever said that 2h damage shouldn't have been, or didn't need to be nerfed. I and many other vets have plenty of disagreements with raj, so trying to hold him up as some kind of singular authority is disingenuous.
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Post by tank on Dec 8, 2014 2:50:47 GMT
I think we should wait for limbo before judging the state of balance in the game
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 8, 2014 4:16:09 GMT
Well Kaezer you are correct, that Azzagrat may have been a poorly picked example from bazukar. How do you explain the same result then in Malad, Cania, Nessus, Ely or Aboleths, or any other run for that matter? I know what Staffies did and what they do now. If they are left as they are, I will never even bother making one. Why? They are extremely buff dependent and super fragile if those are off (death or msd and that´s it). On top they cannot use the shield slot for extras and do not gain any extra defence (ac, soak, DR, regen) besides the buff spells and gearing them is pure horror. And for all that they do mediocre damage at best now!? It´s pretty much the same reason I gave up on my AA. If I have a class canon like that I want at least do good to very good damage output or have a lot of utility in exchange. Oh and let´s not forget: they got practically no upgrade what so ever from the paragon levels but AB, while others improved even there damage output through them. And very important: I base this on level 60 NOT 80 characters.
And bringing that “after limbo drops” thing in here is really pushing it. After more than 3 years of waiting patience is gone and this matter has nothing to do with it.
As a side-note: If the current damage output is in all seriousness considered to be good for those classes, barbarians need a serious damage nerf. Having top notch damage and defences (large weapon + shield cheese + rage damage boost + 20% boost on top) at the same time makes them superior to any other current melee character, and largely overpowered. Even a 2 hander Paladin has a hard time competing and their defences are a joke in comparison. (Even with the midget build, but he has at least good smites).
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Post by tank on Dec 8, 2014 15:21:13 GMT
And bringing that “after limbo drops” thing in here is really pushing it. After more than 3 years of waiting patience is gone and this matter has nothing to do with it. but it's so close to release, weeks probably
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Post by arek on Dec 8, 2014 16:50:04 GMT
And bringing that “after limbo drops” thing in here is really pushing it. After more than 3 years of waiting patience is gone and this matter has nothing to do with it. but it's so close to release, weeks probably I hate to jump on this bandwagon but here it is....I'll believe it when I see it. As for quarterstaves, I think completely removing them from the 2h buff was a massive overnerf. Staffmasters have decent defenses (not great) if their buffs are up. If their buffs drop for any reason, they become carpet tanks. Staff Monks aren't in that much better shape, defensively - and in some ways, they're worse. Don't get me wrong, I like my staff monk, but its damage output isn't that great. And my staffmaster has been (mostly) benched for a long time due to being outdamaged far too often in good groups, while also dying too much for my liking. Let staffmasters be the glass cannons they were meant to be. Also, even if Staffmasters were in good shape right now without the 2h weapon buff, making the quarterstaff count as a double weapon with at least 20 levels of monk and the relevant feats would reduce the build diversity of staff monks, imo - here's how: Current top staff monks get 10 attacs per round with Harper. Having the qstaff count as a double weapon gives +2 attacks, with the downside of -2 AB, and costs 3 feats. Current top staff monk builds (generally 20M/13WM/5HS) are very feat-tight, so getting the feats on them would cost AB - something they're already short of in at-level content. So we get 2 attacks in exchange for -10% chance to hit with all attacks. Not good, so what's the solution? Drop HS for Fighter, gaining enough feats for the twf line and the first couple of WS feats. This is currently a viable option since it gives us more AB and more damage per hit, but it would likely become the "one true way" to build a top-damaging staff monk if the qstaff were to become a double weapon for us. Please take that into consideration when fixing the quarterstaff. --Arek
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Post by tank on Dec 8, 2014 17:47:10 GMT
My hope is that the first paragon level areas will drop in 1-2 months. We're aware that the mod has been made too easy by the advent of paragon levels - something would be very wrong were this not the case, since the areas to go along with those levels haven't dropped yet, and the levels represent a very real power increase. A Funky trust, we will soon be able to find out what needs to be adjusted
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Post by leid on Dec 8, 2014 18:13:04 GMT
1-2 months.. posted over 2 years ago. Yeah. Not holding my breath.
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 8, 2014 19:20:39 GMT
To me the simple fix is remove the 2H bonus restriction on QStaff and place a 2H restriction on SM that lowers thier 2H bonus to 20% like a Barbarian w/ a Shield. I am not sure on Staffmonks but if there is a concern there put a 20% 2H limit on Monks too since no monk can reasonably be expected to use anything 2H besides a QStaff.
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Post by bazukar on Dec 9, 2014 13:31:06 GMT
TBH I'm not sure why the bonus wasn't just 1.5x str and base weapon/ele/exo damage baseline. Allowing class specific damage to be multiplied could have been on a case by case basis, as well as the multiplier. As in the case of my staffmonk vs a staffmaster, maybe I only get the baseline, but they get baseline as well as maybe 1.1 or 1.2x their class damage to be in line with what a staffmonk does. Regardless, I don't think that giving staffmasters and staffmonks the same bonus will square the two classes overall; as an example, an HS variant staffmonk gets 3 attacks more per round than a staffmaster, with a better progression and hit percentage with almost identical AB.
In my OP I mentioned skewed data. Maybe we need a baseline or curve for two handed classes. Currently barbarians and CoTs with dual damage weapons should be top melee based on my theorycraft and what I have seen. There is a case to be made for a damage paladin as well I am told, but I haven't seen the build. Is there a class/combo we would or could use as a baseline? FWIW I wouldn't mind building and gearing characters to test on the dev server or something. The forums have some good builders hidden in the bush, and I've even seen fallen poke his head out. If not the dev server then something on a live one? Parses on dummies or hell critters in the arena? I'm willing to put in some work, I don't want the team to think I'm just gonna throw stuff in the cauldron and not help cook.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 9, 2014 17:28:21 GMT
I think to really get a good comparison you'd need some extensive testing with the following:
Barbarian (with WM/HS splash and halberd focus) CoT (with ftr/WM splash and halberd focus) Paladin (pure, 2-handed rapier wit) Paladin (ftr/hs splash, halberd focus) Staffmaster (obviously) Staff monk (obviously)
Other classes it might be interesting to try:
Fighter (with monk/HS splash, halberd focused) Fighter (same splashes, but dual-wield) Two-handed battle cleric (they're not common but they can dish out respectable damage) Cheese 2-handed STR ranger Fist monk (bg/hs splash, to compare with staffy damage) STR Lash (with FTR splash for WS feats) Two-handed STR WC (with FTR splash for WS feats) Arcane Archer
But then there's other damage dealers who aren't going to look as good hitting crittable dummies, but still are going to put up respectable damage numbers in loggers, such as:
Threaders BFMs (DSMs to a lesser extent) Damage sorc/wiz Herald Pariah
Of course no amount of damage-capacity testing is going to determine actual usefulness on a run, but I guess that's sort of beside the point for the purposes of this discussion.
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