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Post by cathedralmaster on Jan 12, 2016 2:57:43 GMT
In my opinion, personal experience is certainly more valuable than some sociology theory that may or may not be misapplied or totally off base.
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Post by mongoose2 on Jan 18, 2016 4:44:22 GMT
This is not an accurate reflection of the game. The best gear isn't even available for sale generally speaking. Once players get it they do not generally sell it. This is generally true. Also I am no novice player, and I found the game to be nearly impossible without some handouts. You are misrepresenting fact. Though I got few, the ones gotten were much needed. Not in the form of gold, but a few pieces of gear that, if without I could never have advanced. The same goes for many others, be it gear, or subrace books. And by the way the sub race books gifted by long term players are never the best, nor will you as a new player be able to buy the best. Can you play without the best? Yes. It is possible. But so what.
By the way I have seen the best on sale in the form of subrace books. The cost was in the billions, and whilst you seem to believe most new players can easily attain such the truth is that most cannot. You are not presenting arguments, only opinions based on nothing, with no argument, meaning explanation behind the logic of your words even being attempted. I find this bothersome, but it further illustrates my point.
A billion gold, or round about enough to get what is needed? This alone should illustrate the problem. Even if this were true, which in my experience it is not, a billion gold is not an amount most new players will stick around to farm. We are talking about trying to keep new players in a game that is 15 years old. Talking about a billion gold as if it is nothing should in and of itself prove my point.
A personality that doesn't meet with others? The others of what exactly? Lack of diversity to a high degree means everyone is alike, and in this situation in a game play environment which rebuffs such, and favors conformity generally speaking only the exceptions to the rule, and not the rule will flourish. The rest will vote with their feet. I explained this earlier.
Lack of social skills? You mistake me. I do not speak of a lack of social skills. I speak of a small social system made up of people that are exceptions to the generally rule of gaming. People that enjoy a very exceptional way of game play. Notice the word exception in exceptional. It is there for a reason. To denote the rare nature of the topic at hand. The majority, meaning the rule do not enjoy playing the game as you do. Seeking to derail the subject and make it about things other than it is helps no one. The problems your server faces have zero to do with the social skills of new players, and more to do with the exceptional nature of the server itself, and how such an environment is about conformity by its very nature. Everyone is alike, and being a like is encouraged. Too few players leads to a magnification of even the smallest slights, or deviations from the norm (which is an exceptional one) and this leads to a lack of tolerance for anything outside of the norm. Diversity is good because it allows a person to find a sub group without the larger group which fits their personality. In a subset that by itself has no diversity you end up with the opposite. People who, if they do not fit in with the norm cannot, and do not thrive, an vote with their feet to find another group they do fit in with. You see this is an argument. First a premise is presented. That premise being that small social systems made up of a certain type of people discourages diversity. Then I went in to explain why this is the case, and then to explain the consequences of this being the case. That is how you present an argument. None of you that replied have done that. You have simply not liked what you heard, thrown about ad hominems of various types, and said "I disagree because of personal experience." The personal experience part is usually implied, and not said, but is still not an actual argument. It seems like most who reply are doing so merely to throw ad hominems, and then say "something" about how I am wrong, but only in passing.
If you wish to present an argument I have explain, and shown the formula above. However I expect more ad hominems and no real arguments as I am not really mistaken on this matter. The issue is one of denial, as well as in some cases people not understanding my arguments, which are based on real science in the form of social studies, and education on the subject at hand. Those are opinions based on something, not just feeling. If you use logic and reason to forum a simple logic tree, or a cause and effect analysis based on desired, foreseeable, or most likely outcomes you can and will come to the same end results in the final analysis as I have. Whatever you do the problems on your server are systemic. Real change will not to be made to attract new players. You can seek to muddy the waters with ad hominems all you like, but that won't change anything.
There is some skill involved in that doing something time and time again those people have learned what works best, and apply it at the right time. However knowing where and when everything is going to happen is a major advantage, and doesn't require much skill. As for the ability to survive the unexpected as a new player you are going to be limited by your lack of knowledge in part, and more so by your lack of good gear. And no, the best is not available for less than 1 billion. Passable is available, but only will get you through if you have the help of the haves. There is no way you can compete with those people, and few people are going to want to spend weeks and months farming gold in the hope that they happen to have enough of it on hand at the same time a desired book, or piece of gear comes up for sale at a ridiculous price. A loss of perspective occurs when you are a have long enough as opposed to a have not, a disconnect of sorts. You tend to lose touch with those who have not, especially when you are in the majority. You are an exception to the rule who is playing, and basically living in a small social structure where the exception is the norm. But so what? You are still the exception, and most people generally speaking are not going to stick around long enough to amass the "gold" you name as being a no big deal amount. Your own population proves that out.
Skill can mean many things here, it can be knowledge of the server such as spawns, weaknesses, strengths, dangers etc, it can be team work of making chars that fill others flaws, it can be creativity to find the way to handle each and every thing a working way or it can just be your mechanical skill to target your spells on right targets, on right time and ability to react on random spawns.
That is not skill. That is foreknowledge, which is akin to playing a rigged game.
This is a false concession. It is thrown in at the end of a bunch of ad hominems, and unsupported arguments to make a person seem like they are in some way being fair, and unbiased by conceding some points of their opponents points, when they have really conceded nothing at all if you look closely enough.
That doesn't mean anything. It is pseudo philosophy speak, and nothing more then word play. Problems that exist in and of themselves are problems, pure and simple. This is not a relativistic thing.
I do have to point out one thing, with shrinking population, HG might turn into too hard server for new players - where as it is too easy for old timers.
This is exactly what I said, and is a large part of my argument, which you have attempted to co opt, and then minimize the importance of in summation. It also means you agree with me 100%, as you just did so.
This is a personal opinion with no supporting facts whatsoever, as is everything else you said. Most of the people that have replied, all in fact, have done so with ad hominems, and have done nothing but what you have done by saying "I disagree so you are wrong." Yet clearly you agree, as you just agreed with the premise of my argument without even realizing it. A shrinking server population means that new players simply cannot compete with the long time players, as the game is too easy for the long term players. I simply played this argument out further to finality. I suggest you read what I wrote prior.
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Post by tank on Jan 18, 2016 13:16:22 GMT
please, someone. burn it with fire
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Post by fallenwizard on Jan 18, 2016 16:25:20 GMT
This is a personal opinion with no supporting facts whatsoever, as is everything else you said. Most of the people that have replied, all in fact, have done so with ad hominems, and have done nothing but what you have done by saying "I disagree so you are wrong." I dont know what kind of facts you're looking for here. A survey of all players ever played on HG and their experience of the learning/farming/gearing curve? A database check of !wallet with players who has at least 2 lvl 60 chars? Subrace check per account? None of us "just" players can offer any facts to the discussion, not me, you or anyone else for that matter. Well.. maybe some player could've screenshotted the market-listings over the past 4-5 years, but I doubt that. It is a matter of personal experience and perception of what you think others are experiencing. Anyways, there is no law or code what determines HG, its community, economy, balance or anything for that matter, it is just a matter of debate - driven by once again, our own personal experiences, as individuals and as a groups of friends. What comes to my claims about the billion being a bench mark for gear - the evidence is in only in my head, as in I haven't streamed or otherwise recorded the process of leveling any of my accounts. What comes to new players in gear grinding games, if they expect to have everything within a week or two, it is just sad, not saying wrong - just sad. In couple of weeks one should learn what is valuable in server and where and how can farm it. For me on my first account it was toyshop drops, they were in high demand back in 2009 when it was one of the newest runs. I made a char dedicated to it and farmed it for couple of weeks after what I was set to go on any run there is. I'm not saying the same trick works anymore, but what I'm saying there are ways if one bothers to seek them out. 100mill/hour is fairly easily obtainable for next to naked char if you explore enough - 20min respawns, multiple servers - sit on a loot spot that gives 3-5mills and swap servers.. intended? fun? I dunno - people have various takes on what they are willing to do to get what/where they want. - As opposed to sitting in town and trying to shout exp runs and people to drag them. Also, majority of trades done on my time of gaming was done outside of market, using !bazaar or discussing mid run if someone had a need and other had the means to fill it. You also talk about "have nots" not being able to compete with haves.. First of, HG isn't competitive server/game, sure there are people who want's to show off what they have done and the gear they posses, but it is about having fun playing with friends (or solo) more than it is to compete. Second.. even if it was a competition, why should someone be able to acchieve same in 4 months that others have spent 10 years perfecting?
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Post by mongoose2 on Jan 19, 2016 2:58:50 GMT
I can speak to common sense, and to things that are generally true, which makes them fact enough in most cases. No there have been no studies done on HG, but we can still speak in absoolutes in terms of what is generally true, and most commonly true. As for saying that no players can add facts to this conversation that simply is not true. It is a fact that people like to eat sweets. Not all people, but generally speaking most people like them. Is it a fact that generally speaking most of the best gear does not end up on sale. Absolutely. Are there exceptions? Absolutely, but they do not disprove the rule. Facts do not always apply 100% of the time, but if they are generally true I think we can use the word fact, even in a loose sense. No need to split hairs here, as I will concede this is not always true, but generally it is, so no use in splitting hairs. Yes it is a matter of personal experience, at least in part, and observation, and no where did you disagree with me about my observations. You simply are debating the meaning of words, and what is, and is not a fact. This is just waxing poetical, and doesn't have any real meaning. You speak far too much in abstracts, and pseudo philosophy that has no meaning, but waxes poetically, or basis in reality, let alone general facts of life. You have done nothing but divert the conversation from one based in socially accepted facts, and general truth, to one of obscure mumbo jumbo of an abstract nature. You say that the billion mark is just a claim in your head, but it is from my view not even close if you throw in the gear that is gifted, and its cost. Even then a billion would not cover the needed gear. This is a hyperbole response, and in no way reflective of anything I said. What people should do, and what they will do are two different things. You belong to a largely closed social system, which is the actual subject of discussion, not this nonsense you have chosen to focus on. Such a closed system often does not adhere to what most people do, but what they believe "you should" do. That isn't working out so well by the way in terms of new players joining. This was something I had spoken about in length, whilst you and others have instead chosen to focused on very tiny things that are mere symptoms of the problem, and not the problems themselves. That is why cosmetic changes alone won't change anything, nor is speaking of gold, and best gear at all relevant in regards to fixing things on your server. These things are symptoms of a bigger problem, problems that you are not grasping even though I have explained in depth. Instead you keep focusing on gold farming, and other nonsense. I am also guilty for responding to it. You say 100million an hour is farmable by a near naked character? First off let me again point out that this is not relevant. Your servers problems are not due to this. This is symptomatic of other things. That said this statement is false. Even were it not your server would still be in the same state it is now. With many wondering why more people simply don't play, and an equal amount happy with the status quo. And by the way hopping servers again and again all day will not raise the kind of gold you are talking about, no where near. You might say that I am doing it wrong, or some such. This is of course where your anecdotes come in handy, as you can simply say I have not had "your" experience. Fine. You are welcome to say that. However, this statement is false in my experience. Life is competitive. You saying the server is not this, or that changes nothing. It is a game, and everyone is competing in some way. Be it for kills, most damage done, you name it. If they cannot compete they will not enjoy the experience nearly as much. Some might not enjoy it at all. Generally speaking that is the real truth. The game has problems. Look at my prior posts, and address those problems I spoke of, not issues regarding gold farming. If you cannot participate in such a discussion regarding social science, and general truths, without interjecting philosophical ponderings then it might be wise not to interject anything. This is a haves argument, and speaks directly to the issues I addressed earlier. "Why should you, a new player get access to all the gear and races and everything else I spent 10 years amassing. Huh? HUH? I've worked my whole life achieving all of these things, and you think you can just come along in an hour and get the same things? How dare you. How "DARE" you!" This is typical of the haves point of view, and speaks to how out of touch someone is with what is generally true. Yes, people play games to have fun, yet you have failed to see any of my points, or understand them. You clearly did not read what I wrote prior, and if you did you failed to understand it, so let me repeat myself. People play games to have fun. They play games to escape from reality, not inundate themselves within a world that is exactly like the real world. Generally speaking no one wants to work for 10 years to achieve success of the highest order playing a game. They absolutely want to be able to achieve the highest levels of success in a relatively short period of time. That is why they are playing a game. If they could achieve that level of success in life they probably would not be playing a game to achieve such in the first place. A general truth you seem to have missed.
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Post by chainlink on Jan 19, 2016 11:26:57 GMT
Wow mongoose2 the gift that just keeps giving :-)
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Post by Paradoom on Jan 19, 2016 12:37:30 GMT
Basically your solution is this mod to become a game wherein a single player can just do all the content from scratch independently from anyone else and in about 3 months maximum. Sorry to break it so hard to you, but you are playing the wrong game. And before you jump to wild conclusions: I am one of the "having" people on this server. That´s why I and some others started to play hardcore to have that "noob" experience again (which was awesome!). In about 4 months though we achieved 5-7 demi iterations and 3 prince win´s on our characters and we were able to grant some of that to several HC players as well along the way. They helped us greatly at the start and we were eager to share with them our knowledge. This is what this community does. If you have severe different/negative experiences as you claim I say you have to change yourself first, not the other way around. And I´ve seen you referring to years back and more diversity of people. Well years back many people were excluded from end-game content even, because they didn't meet the near perfect expectations of some really extreme elitists. Nowadays ppl. usually get fed up with you if you repeatedly do the same mistake on the same run over and over for several repetitions of that one run. Esp. if you got adviced multiple times on what you did wrong and should do instead. It is by far more moderate than it used to be and the expectations are not to go perfect, but to improve so far at least to carry your own weight. And on a side note check this thread: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/24041/upgrading-lowbie-areas-bosses-dropsThis is just one of several examples of how this community has worked on addressing and accommodating new players. Toxic atmosphere? yeah right... tl;dr: You are an air-pump mongoose2.
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Post by mongoose2 on Jan 19, 2016 18:13:23 GMT
I never said the solution is to make the game one that can be solved in 3 months, though if you look at other online games that are more representative of what is generally liked among gamers you will see that easier is preferred. And by the way most people don't want to play a game that takes so much time to solve that it would take ages unless you had no job, or devoted all of your free time to it, and even then it would take a while. However, most people are not like you. That is the point you seem to be missing. If you are fine with that, and having virtually no one play on your server, than great. There is nothing wrong with that. Just don't post on forums trying to find ways to get new players when you are in no way open to hearing about the problems that exist on your forum, and are so opposed to hearing views on this subject that you throw about ad hominems when you hear things you do not want to hear. You only prove my point with such actions of intolerance. Lack of diversity.
As for playing the wrong game. Nope. I am not playing at all. The reasons are reflected in your reply, and those of others.
I am an air pump? More ad hominems. If you cannot respond without personal attacks probably best not to respond, as that is no argument at all.
Yes people do get fed up. It isn't hard to get fed up when you can only run with a very few elites, as you cannot find those who would tolerate, and may even make the same mistakes as you. Lack of diversity.
Sorry but gaming is not the real world. 99% of the people that are gamers are not like you. If you have ever played other games that have "millions" of players you would know this. You are the exception to the rule, and coming on a forum and grandstanding for all to see without even informing yourself fully on the subject at hand doesn't change this fact. In fact you are not really saying anything. You threw about a few ad hominems, and tooted your own horn a bit, but nothing more.
You used the words toxic atmosphere. Of course you do not think it is toxic because it is well suited to you. You are one of the haves. However it is not well suited to most gamers. If you want proof of that you need look no further than the number of people that play on your server.
You can continue to try and change the discussions direction with ad hominems, but you are not even accomplishing that. Again, you are just making my point for me. Thanks for that.
You are an exception to the rule, and no one is going to want to play somewhere so lacking in diversity that any opinion not in line with the social system you currently inhabit is trashed ad hominem. No one.
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Post by mongoose2 on Jan 19, 2016 18:38:31 GMT
In truth you have heard none of my solutions, and no I won't post them. I would be surprised if you asked why.
This is an ad hominem attack, and not worth addressing.
You mean those extreme elitists that sound so much like some of the people on your server present day but of course are not you and yours? Those who had near perfect expectations, and made reaching end game impossible because of those expectations, but of course are not you and yours? You mean the above analysis which perfectly fits mine when you say those elitists were the problem, and not yourself, yet it is I in the present analysis that has some unspecified problem, even though your past analysis so perfectly fits my present one?
Lack of tolerance for the mistakes of others is indicative of the type of intolerance you get in very small, closed social systems where the individuals within that group are used to working together, and without outside influence or interference. I am sure even you can see how such an environment can breed intolerance. You are making my arguments for me.
What someone did wrong, or what you believe they did wrong? And does this encourage, or discourage diveristy?
My experiences showed me one thing. You have to be perfect almost immediately or else. All that does is "discourage" people from staying, and all of your grand standing, and talk about community, and how things actually used to be worse is just word play, and doesn't change anything. Let alone address any of the problems.
I have to wonder who appointed you as the arbitrator of who is worthy of pulling their own weight? Self appointed? This attitude is indicative of the problems I spoke of earlier, and how they are part of the system of social governance you have set up. It has developed over time of course, but is no less systemic for this fact. I suggest you go back and read my first reply, and then reply with an actual argument, instead of self congratulatory high fives, and seeking to promote your games server as something it is not. It won't help you get new players. I can tell you that. By the way the elitist lilt of this and other pronouncements of yours are hard to miss.
Irrelevant, as it has zero to do with the problems that exist on your server. You failed to study the lesson, and then come to class claiming to know the material better than I. I don't think so. Please read what I wrote prior to this before commenting. If you don't wish to fine with me. It will make it much easier to disprove non arguments, and point out that all you have to say are ad hominems.
Yeah. Right. Exactly right.
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Post by Paradoom on Jan 19, 2016 18:52:26 GMT
Actually your figure is wrong. It is more like 1 out of 1.2 billion players are not like me, which is logical of course, because they are not me.
If you are not playing, and you didn't play for many many years even, how in the world do you have that much "knowledge" about the current server and the players actively playing? (FYI that is a rhetorical question). Air-pump.
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Post by mongoose2 on Jan 19, 2016 19:00:24 GMT
You have not been paying attention, so I won't bother to answer your non question. I spoke of all of this in my first post, which you failed to read. All you have done is come here, speak about something you are not informed about, and then acted as if you have won something. You have won nothing. You proved my point far better than I ever could. Why would anyone come and play a game where they had to deal with this? They would not.
And by the way, since you said it I will correct you on it. Alike and same are 2 different things.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 19, 2016 19:09:48 GMT
I only came in on the last page and have been away from this place for over a year and see yet again this same thing being said by some fresh blood who comes in seemingly expecting a WoW experience and being but hurt because it isn't. This game is nothing like those or most any modern game and the community is also very different because it attracts different types of players or appeals to a different aspect of those players that the enjoyment and experience here is something different that they may lack in other places. I could be all wrong but this is how this last page comes off to me so I said my needless remarks to feed your trolling but its therapeutic for me to say these remarks even when they will fall on deaf ears.
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Post by bazukar on Jan 19, 2016 19:52:51 GMT
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Post by woqued on Jan 20, 2016 13:35:45 GMT
mongoose2 - why are you posting? There are better places for honing your understanding of social behaviour. You already declared you have no intention of posting any solutions, so... why?
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Post by desocupado on Jan 20, 2016 15:28:33 GMT
There has been an increase in activity this winter. Tough the Vets playing HC seems to have stopped. But the end game tagging system is not viable with the current activity. That much seems a fact to me.
I could suggest ideas to mitigate it all day: I'd say more LL areas should have the monsters changed to be easier for tanks (monsters with High SR but low AB/AC) - similar to the Maze - I'd suggest tweaking the monsters in Toyshop, Elemental Planes and Zorgbot Hive to become mostly tank areas.
Personally I think the way this server is structured requires too much commitment with each character (XP/Tags/Tag order). If it was easier to make more characters, even vets would feel like trying some different stuff (ofc that would need buff to said classes). More stuff (tags and even xp to a lesser degree) should be account-wise. Let's say you need just 1 hell cycle with each character to get full demi bonus. Also add liberty to do hell layers in any order. The hell cycle / abyss prince tagging only worked well in the old days of multiple guilds doing runs on schedule.
I'd even consider making reincarnation free of cost and restrictions. So people can fix their characters or give up on the class if they have a hard time (like most tanks have 41-54, and nearly any newbie). Most character bound items could become account bound instead.
Subraces are another problematic thing. They do cause a lot of envy ("I can't do that character because I lack that subrace" / "my character would be ineffective without that subrace"). I really think every one should be a set drop to make people go to those area, or would even outright allow everyone to use any subrace. I mean, "we already have to farm the gear, but why the race?".
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