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Post by chirality on Jan 20, 2016 16:21:14 GMT
Let's just remove all restrictions and give it all away for free; because it's not like time has proven that handouts and dropped bars actually are counter-productive to player retention.
If the server requires too much commitment, then you committed your time in an unwise manner (like most, it means you burned out before you actually became a pro, which is sad, but no one, least of all development theory, should be held accountable for players' laziness and penchant for only playing crappy tanks). It's unfortunate that people spend just enough time here to realize that they only saw the tip of the iceberg, and then give up, but they could have seen a lot more of the iceberg if they didn't spend 99% of their time in a boat circling around the tip waiting for a better-equipped, more-experienced team of explorers to show up first.
There's something in the refrain of "times changed, game must be made easier for sake of new player" and "new player is overwhelmed by inability to compete with vets" that makes us all puke. Envy? Competition? This is exactly the carrots that should motivate RPGers to improve. If every game is a competition filled with envy, and HG is a competition filled with envy, then it looks like all these posts are just result of envious nubs losing the competition.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 20, 2016 17:37:00 GMT
I refuse feed the troll. --- Basically, how do I put, the server map is too large for the tag requirement * number of players playing. Having many options is good, and I must congratulate the devs in doing so much. So many memorable bosses and areas. However having so many possibilities make it hard to party up due level difference, tag needs and/or run requirements differences. We have at least 3 zones: - Pre-LL (1-40) where people need to do the same stuff over and over in the same order. (I'd say it gets annoying after 4 complete runs, and I did over 10 times) - LL (41-59) basically a grind fest - You can do anything that isn't Ely, Abo, Hells or Abyss up to until the end, but the start is rough. (You really don't want to be a melee character here) - PL (60+) Ely, Abo, Hells or Abyss are a challenge at first and you'll be dragged if you're poor when you reach here Also the Paragon Levels broke most LL areas and increased the player level difference to a whole new level. It increased the expected standard of effectiveness in the 55+ areas. Back then, when the level cap was 60, everyone had several areas that they felt were interesting/challenging, but grinding itself was less desirable (so people were less inclined to "help" for no tag). Nowadays I have the feeling the character isn't started until 60. The paragon content is great (and needed) but it cost something we had before - the players in the same "level zone". ---- I wonder if it's possible to check when new people give up on the server (highest level, total level sum, class breakdown, gold) instead of so much speculation. Tough If I were to speculate, I'd guess is that the 1-59 content feels the most aversive. In special the zone 2 - 41-60 ---- Actually it was a handout that made me stay in the server. Back then I had a Cleric dexter with two nunchakus , an open race staffmaster (Air Genasi) and an open subrace shifter (Lizard folk, I think), I had a friend in this server that gave up due the impossibility of committing to longer runs above 1 hour. So after some time, he had a 60 phralan tuner which he used mostly to farm Oinos. Since he was leaving for good he handed a couple of burs and several URs (to me and some other people) which made my way into hell less aversive (he was a nice guy I even preferred to play with him rather that join some runs). Some time after that I managed to finish my first hell cycle with my staffmaster (that become a stinger afterwards, back then it was cool to have a exoskeleton and a tail if you weren't a koly).
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Post by chirality on Jan 20, 2016 18:26:28 GMT
Much of this analysis of PL impact really demonstrates the difficulty many players have in adapting to Funky's approach of min/max perceptions.
The way some see it, max power level = required power level for success/enjoyment.
The way some see it, PLs exist, so the max power level is 80, not 60. However, every single area in this game was, for many years, grinded, farmed, exploited, and "burnt out" to players with L60 toons.
The way some see it, pre-LL tag bonuses exist, so the max power level available requires the completion of pre-LL tags. However, see above with no tag bonuses.
The way some see it, BUR subraces exist, so the max power level is BUR and anything less is not fun.
There are other examples, but the point is that this game was developed on the premise of min/maxing being favorable but not necessary. At this point, arguing about it doesn't matter because from the ground up (such as the subrace books issue which was a huge turnoff to me initially on HG), this game was built to offer long-term carrots that keep old players interested, while at the same time having a low enough "difficulty" that even new players wouldn't feel the need for those old player carrots. It is patently untrue that all new players view these things as requirements, and it's patently untrue that no new players dared to enter hells without a BUR subrace or a PL toon. These perceptions are enforced by the whining of very vocal whiners, but if all new players gave up because of feeling pressured about not having the same loot as vets, then there would be no one here to comment on his thread.
Many arguments in the past on dev theory on this server were based on the feeling that players will min/max to the extreme and refuse to be satisfied with anything less than the extreme; thus, all extremes must be used as a benchmark for determining "requirements" of progression, ability to progress, and power level. Funky's consistent historical stance on this debate is that these power-increasing options are truly options, and not requirements, as would be the case if players were truly required to always choose the optimal, most min/maxed option for success (not "winning). Funky maintains that these choices are indeed personal choices, and insisting that they are not choices (but in fact requirements for enjoyment) is probably not going to hold much weight.
Catering to each and every player's personal needs is simply unrealistic and ridiculous, so development must maintain the best balance it can between attracting new players, retaining new players, and retaining old players. Unfortunately for greedy nubs, this means that old players must have goals as well--goals which by nature and definition are out of reach for new players. It can't be accurate to assume that each and every new player will require the fast intake of options which were designed to cater to old players, because some players do manage to find it enjoyable to start off without having the best, and only players that come to the server already in a competitive and envious mindset would allow their "fun R&R gametime" to be dictated by jealousy for players with more experience and power. Pay to win games operate on the basis that eventually they'll cater so much to new players that they'll lose so many old layers that they stop making money and move on. However, HG is free and doesn't follow a model based on accumulating money. Pleasing no one except new players with cash to burn only works when your game exists to make money and is a disposable tool once it stops being lucrative; HG is a hobby and personal love that exists to please as many people as it can, and since new players can't pay cash to win, they must pay time to win. Unfair? Then pay for a bot account and win easier. If anything, HG is one of the best-value pay-to-win games I've seen: with 9.99 for a 2nd NWN copy you unlock fast access to xp, tags, and loot. And no further transactions are required! It's hilarious to me to see recommendation of "reinc is too painful and expensive, remove restrictions" when comparable RPGs actually have a real-world cost for similar options. HG ingame shops use ingame money--is this such a terrible thing? Just play the game.
You mention that levels up to 59 are just an LL grind, and endgame runs are too hard and only a drag. But how could this be true when those runs were once ran by L59 toons? This is a matter of perception, and grinding LLs to L60 before entering hells is personal choice. Having older players reinforce this perception might not be avoidable, but it might be.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 20, 2016 18:57:15 GMT
Much of this analysis of PL impact really demonstrates the difficulty many players have in adapting to Funky's approach of min/max perceptions. The way some see it, max power level = required power level for success/enjoyment. People don't want to feel dragged / useless. The way everyone's tank 41-55 feels in the desert. As a power gamer, as endorsed by in game documentation, one must exploit all available advantages. Doing tags didn't add much time when the quests were "bugged" with higher xp wields. I'd agree with this. I can swap my UR gear to BUR gear, but not my race. Having a BUR race allows my caster to have one more spell school and 2 more DC. My tank can resist checks and can have some fancy build. Isn't it enough to farm for the fancy randomize-able gear? The subraces affect character planning. When I make a build I try to achieve a certain fantasy for instance I wanted to make a good threader but I had to make due with kobold threader then I got to fallen angel threader (before it was cool - i.e. intuitive attack.) then I finally got to zenthri And we dragged them or schooled them into better using their casters (or tanks, if that made any difference). Newer player have both less power and experience. Even with optimal power they wouldn't have the highest efficiency. I'd compare free reincarnation to GW or even D3. It's a room to fix mistakes. PRe-LL has a lower cost reincarnation. Let's say the pre-immo reincarnation benefits go up to when you become a demigod or level 63. For the newer player it does. There's too few URs in LL areas for the needs in hells.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 19:07:21 GMT
There has been an increase in activity this winter. Tough the Vets playing HC seems to have stopped. But the end game tagging system is not viable with the current activity. I have no idea what you mean by this. The server has been very active lately, but it is the players themselves who are choosing to use Level 70+ toons to spam the same effortless DB/Thids/Tia/PoM runs, with the occasional Dis/Min thrown into the mix. The fact that people seem frightened to enter anything deeper has nothing to do with the tagging system, and everything to do with players insisting on playing/tagging their worthless classes instead of cores, combined with not taking advantage of the wealth of resources on the Wiki/Forums to improve their own playing ability (all on top of classic vets who won't learn syndrome, where so called 'veterans' refuse to admit there is still stuff for them to learn - hint: EVERYONE has room to improve).
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Post by Matt on Jan 20, 2016 19:19:50 GMT
Need more cores, i dont enjoy playing multiple cores at once... but i have to a fair amount of the time. Positively, a good amount of players have been playing with me in the past week or two i started normal mode.
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Post by fergusflatnose on Jan 21, 2016 9:59:47 GMT
I have a cleric and would love to help out on some runs. I will need some guidance and patience however as I havent played at all in 8 or 9 years. I am having a bit of difficulty figuring everything out again. My cleric is a Fallen Angel that I just reinced from a splash to a pure caster. He has 4 hell tags but probably not the greatest gear. A bur ring and sheild and a couple Tia items. Pretty sure those are the only burs on my account along with a spelljammer book i dont know what to do with. I also have a genie PM and a couple tanks all hell tagged but maybe they arent viable builds anymore. Have things changed so much that you need a bur race and uber gear for hell? Near the end of my previous gaming days, when hells and burs were introduced we just made do with what we had and dove in. Anyways, If anyone wants to hang with an old newb hit me up. Im usually on weekdays
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 10:27:58 GMT
I have a cleric and would love to help out on some runs. I will need some guidance and patience however as I havent played at all in 8 or 9 years. I am having a bit of difficulty figuring everything out again. My cleric is a Fallen Angel that I just reinced from a splash to a pure caster. He has 4 hell tags but probably not the greatest gear. A bur ring and sheild and a couple Tia items. Pretty sure those are the only burs on my account along with a spelljammer book i dont know what to do with. I also have a genie PM and a couple tanks all hell tagged but maybe they arent viable builds anymore. Have things changed so much that you need a bur race and uber gear for hell? Near the end of my previous gaming days, when hells and burs were introduced we just made do with what we had and dove in. Anyways, If anyone wants to hang with an old newb hit me up. Im usually on weekdays Things have not changed, in fact the introduction of Paragon levels greatly reduces the necessity of top-notch gear and BUR subraces on cores (consider Druids, where the main difference between BUR Rilmani and Open-Sub Dryadkin is +4 Wisdom, ie: +2 DC, which is made up for most of your spells at Level 63 through PSF: Transmutation). Too many people forget the the current endgame areas were designed for Level 60 toons, relatively poorly equipped Level 70+ toons can easily clear every layer in Hell when playing with a brain. Anyway, the good news is Fallen Angel is such a good UR race it is pretty close to being BUR, and cores only need the most basic gear to start off with - your Cleric with Tia gear and a BUR shield will be plenty powerful for Hell. Message me if you see me online sometime and I'll try and give you some help and get a run or two started with you.
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Post by chainlink on Jan 21, 2016 12:23:57 GMT
I have a cleric and would love to help out on some runs. I will need some guidance and patience however as I havent played at all in 8 or 9 years. I am having a bit of difficulty figuring everything out again. My cleric is a Fallen Angel that I just reinced from a splash to a pure caster. He has 4 hell tags but probably not the greatest gear. A bur ring and sheild and a couple Tia items. Pretty sure those are the only burs on my account along with a spelljammer book i dont know what to do with. I also have a genie PM and a couple tanks all hell tagged but maybe they arent viable builds anymore. Have things changed so much that you need a bur race and uber gear for hell? Near the end of my previous gaming days, when hells and burs were introduced we just made do with what we had and dove in. Anyways, If anyone wants to hang with an old newb hit me up. Im usually on weekdays Going pure on a cleric can be problematic, whilst optimising spell penetration you lose the potentially massive ac boost you can get from taking a monk level plus the skill dumps at level 40 which will render you extremely vulnerable to slagging if you wear heavy armor and use a shield. Of course if you don't use these then you'll have an even worse ac and very limited physical immunity. I agree that a paladin splash is redundant on clerics as you'll want to be evil to heartbane and apart from reflex your other saves will be OK anyway.
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Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on Jan 21, 2016 21:25:16 GMT
I have a cleric and would love to help out on some runs. I will need some guidance and patience however as I havent played at all in 8 or 9 years. I am having a bit of difficulty figuring everything out again. My cleric is a Fallen Angel that I just reinced from a splash to a pure caster. He has 4 hell tags but probably not the greatest gear. A bur ring and sheild and a couple Tia items. Pretty sure those are the only burs on my account along with a spelljammer book i dont know what to do with. I also have a genie PM and a couple tanks all hell tagged but maybe they arent viable builds anymore. Have things changed so much that you need a bur race and uber gear for hell? Near the end of my previous gaming days, when hells and burs were introduced we just made do with what we had and dove in. Anyways, If anyone wants to hang with an old newb hit me up. Im usually on weekdays Going pure on a cleric can be problematic, whilst optimising spell penetration you lose the potentially massive ac boost you can get from taking a monk level plus the skill dumps at level 40 which will render you extremely vulnerable to slagging if you wear heavy armor and use a shield. Of course if you don't use these then you'll have an even worse ac and very limited physical immunity. I agree that a paladin splash is redundant on clerics as you'll want to be evil to heartbane and apart from reflex your other saves will be OK anyway. Going pure cleric is the best option and there is practically nothing "problematic" about it. Pure cleric gives you so many benefits: SP, BT, Gate soak and ect. This massive ac boost is hardly a benefit because you sacrifice a huge proportion of your immunities/resistance to use robes. I'd say non-demi monk cleric would cap out at around 140 ac while a cleric with plate+shield caps around 130 ac+ all the benefits I mentioned above. If you absolutely must splash I would recommend ranger for the extra spell foci (some builds don't need) but you'd better have a sub-par Casterlevel Ego with it. Ranger also allows disc dump @40. While talking about that- if you cross class dump in discipline and use spells like conviction (disc boost based on CHA mod) AND GR yourself near Cinderscales your first demi cycle it is unlikely you will slag, and if you think you might slag, carry slag scrolls...worse comes to worse use Plag (slag immune shield from phleg) and robes on the Phleg layer (what I used a few times during pre/young demi). There are so many benefits from pure cleric I just cant see something thinking monk is an acceptable choice because of the AC boost. If you see a "slagging monster" more importantly just re-position yourself away from it..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 23:11:23 GMT
Going pure on a cleric can be problematic, whilst optimising spell penetration you lose the potentially massive ac boost you can get from taking a monk level plus the skill dumps at level 40 which will render you extremely vulnerable to slagging if you wear heavy armor and use a shield. Of course if you don't use these then you'll have an even worse ac and very limited physical immunity. I agree that a paladin splash is redundant on clerics as you'll want to be evil to heartbane and apart from reflex your other saves will be OK anyway. Going pure cleric is the best option and there is practically nothing "problematic" about it. Pure cleric gives you so many benefits: SP, BT, Gate soak and ect. This massive ac boost is hardly a benefit because you sacrifice a huge proportion of your immunities/resistance to use robes. I'd say non-demi monk cleric would cap out at around 140 ac while a cleric with plate+shield caps around 130 ac+ all the benefits I mentioned above. If you absolutely must splash I would recommend ranger for the extra spell foci (some builds don't need) but you'd better have a sub-par Casterlevel Ego with it. Ranger also allows disc dump @40. While talking about that- if you cross class dump in discipline and use spells like conviction (disc boost based on CHA mod) AND GR yourself near Cinderscales your first demi cycle it is unlikely you will slag, and if you think you might slag, carry slag scrolls...worse comes to worse use Plag (slag immune shield from phleg) and robes on the Phleg layer (what I used a few times during pre/young demi). There are so many benefits from pure cleric I just cant see something thinking monk is an acceptable choice because of the AC boost. If you see a "slagging monster" more importantly just re-position yourself away from it.. Maybe not quite so clear cut, pure Cleric is arguably better IF you have the gear to back it up, also note that ESF: Abjuration (for Magic Vestment AC) can be hard to fit on any race except Half Celestial, so on a non-BUR race the AC boost is a bit larger. Splash also enables Wrap of Raphael to add +1 DC to Heartbane, which goes a long way since it's a double-save spell (also +1 DC for Poison and Bestow Curse, though the latter has such a low DC it usually only works on drained mobs anyway). Having said that, the 'massive boost to AC' is not as critical as it would be on any other class since Clerics have gigantic Gate soak (also, the AC boost is actually not 'massive' until x2 Demi and +16 items), and 'extremely vulnerable to slagging' may tend towards hyperbole - it is really not such a big problem, as Mike said there is always the option for Sparten shield + Asmo Armor/Robes to be completely slag-immune in the few areas where slagging is a major issue. In any case, there are also 'shred' checks where it can be an advantage to wear armor instead of robes, granted they are less common checks than slagging but it's fair to mention if slag-potential is argued as a significant build disadvantage. For lower level/poorer toons I would say Pure vs Splash is probably equal or slightly favours Splash for newer players anyway, Battletide needs good positioning/some degree of knowledge to take advantage of and for inexperienced players, I would argue Defence > 1 SP; another example, 're-positioning to handle slagging' is a *relatively* difficult skill to develop in HG and is not a realistic tactic for new players (plenty of so-called veterans have atrocious positioning skills). Personally I am not a big fan of the Ranger Splash option, I think if you're not gonna go Monk you should definitely just go Pure - all the reasons you mentioned why Pure is better are not worth the one feat + Discipline sink Ranger provides IMO. Egos should not be brought into the discussion since using a CL one nullifies the possibility of using a DC one. In terms of Fergus' position I would say that the difference is negligible for now, so arguing is kind of redundant.
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Post by fergusflatnose on Jan 22, 2016 5:19:02 GMT
Well i ended up reworking him back into a splash build. I figure it will make me a little less squishy while i get my bearings. Can always change back later I guess. Been back a week and I havent been anywhere but the bank and test chamber. PM makeover is up next.
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Post by moe on Jan 23, 2016 13:27:12 GMT
Time to add my worthless opinion. You know, i think every server (of ever game) I have ever played has had a thread on it's forum about the "server going to hell". I'm pretty sure there was one when I left here last time. And yet, here it still is all these years later.
For my part, I will NEVER be that perfect lvl 70 Paragon. I used to love to build toons that could easily run all the tags and even perform adequately in LL runs. It has never been a goal of mine to be able to solo the Hells or be the top dog. I appreciate that some people DO like to go to the extreme with their toons. More power to them and if there is anything I can do to help out, I will.
As hard as it is for some people to understand, not all of us are even capable of "doing the math". It's not like it is common math. I enjoy playing the game, not spending time with spreadsheets and documentation to figure out how to spend that last skill point. I detest "being dragged". If I can't hold my own then I don't deserve to be there. I do enjoy going on runs where I am of some benefit to the party. Hell, I can barely run my own toon, let alone the extra boxes some people run. I was half way through that DB run before I realized that the rest of my party was the same person.
MY POINT: There are PLAYERS and then there are Players. Not everyone wants to be a PLAYER. I believe there is room for both here.
As for runs: I must admit to seeing a lot of "closed runs" since I've been back. People that organize a run between friends and it never get's shouted. Others have runs with bots, and offer the open slots to players (which says to me that they would rather play with themselves, and any volunteers are just there for the heck of it. That DB run didn't NEED me, it just let me come along.
Used to be a lot more shouts for runs back in the day. Maybe I will change that, because that is what it takes. Someone who is NOT "connected" simply shouting for runs - and giving players a chance to join. Perhaps that will be MY niche - LL runs "for the rest of us".
In any case, Paragon Levels are someone else's domain. I don't see it as a negative where you can play at any level that pleases you. This server offers 3 distinct levels of play. PreLL, LL, and PL. Anyone can play the first two, the last one is for those who have the time and abilities to reach for perfection. I see it as a sustainable format, not the end of the World.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jan 28, 2016 14:34:45 GMT
Giving the lower server population and thus the higher difficulty in finding parties, especially in the lowbie areas, I would suggest reducing the time it takes to get back items from fugue.
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Post by mongoose2 on Feb 12, 2016 17:18:30 GMT
There has been an increase in activity this winter. Tough the Vets playing HC seems to have stopped. But the end game tagging system is not viable with the current activity. That much seems a fact to me. I could suggest ideas to mitigate it all day: I'd say more LL areas should have the monsters changed to be easier for tanks (monsters with High SR but low AB/AC) - similar to the Maze - I'd suggest tweaking the monsters in Toyshop, Elemental Planes and Zorgbot Hive to become mostly tank areas. Personally I think the way this server is structured requires too much commitment with each character (XP/Tags/Tag order). If it was easier to make more characters, even vets would feel like trying some different stuff (ofc that would need buff to said classes). More stuff (tags and even xp to a lesser degree) should be account-wise. Let's say you need just 1 hell cycle with each character to get full demi bonus. Also add liberty to do hell layers in any order. The hell cycle / abyss prince tagging only worked well in the old days of multiple guilds doing runs on schedule. I'd even consider making reincarnation free of cost and restrictions. So people can fix their characters or give up on the class if they have a hard time (like most tanks have 41-54, and nearly any newbie). Most character bound items could become account bound instead. Subraces are another problematic thing. They do cause a lot of envy ("I can't do that character because I lack that subrace" / "my character would be ineffective without that subrace"). I really think every one should be a set drop to make people go to those area, or would even outright allow everyone to use any subrace. I mean, "we already have to farm the gear, but why the race?". LoL. You basically said everything I said in my posts both here, and in Moes, yet you are not being flamed. I guess using the press as a tool to smear someone, and then later retracting it on page 12 works. You can accuse someone of being someone else nobody likes, be wrong, and then get away with it because people missed the retraction, or just didn't care.
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