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Post by simpetar on Apr 13, 2020 6:29:40 GMT
I question the idea that this will make forming a group easier - it may end up being just an illusion. Let's say your party is ready to go to Cania, but you are missing a druid. A druid shows up, but says he needs Malad first. You strike a deal, let's do Malad-Cania double, everybody is happy. Now let's say there is no such order; if the druid already has Cania completed, but needs only Malad, you as party leader lose a bargaining chip. This system relies on player helpfulness and/or botting even more. You may have solved one problem, but created another one to solve with some sort of carrot-on-a-stick or serious social engineering. Let's face it, nobody likes Cania Also Writs, they would need to be revisited. No matter how rare / expensive they may be, there will be players (mainly botters) who are able to farm them and (ab)use them to the extreme. That is, Tia - 7 writs - Nessus. It will lead to less variation in hell runs, less incentive to bait webdash lurkers or even active players seeking 60+ stuff to do, but unable to. Vast majority of HG population defaults to hells when idle, other runs tend to be exception rather than rule outside well organized tight groups. Take that away with even more Writs and you have a much bigger problem on your hands. Finally, the Nine Hells are the orderly and lawful counterpart to Abyss, Blood War and stuff. ORDERLY. Deal with it
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Post by simpetar on Apr 13, 2020 6:55:46 GMT
I could imagine a compromise: first 2 hell cycles on a character need to be done in order, the way it currently works. First (and to a lesser extent second) Asmo kill have the biggest impact on the early end-game carreer and should require little more effort. It will also serve as a guide for new players. After double demi, the characters can mix and match hell progression any way they like (although probably should start with Tia and end with Nessus).
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Post by woqued on Apr 13, 2020 10:13:07 GMT
Come on now. How the hell is the bargaining chip of malad+cania doublerun a bigger deal than you being able to do any malads at any time as opposed to only after having done tia-malb? Or in Nessus' case, you are able to get your Nessus tag any time a Nessus run appears when you are up for it, not only after you've secured all of tia-cania. Characters will simply have way more run oppourtunities to tag. People still need to do every layer, they will just have quantifiably more tagging oppourtunities. How can you chalk it up to illusion?
Now, sure the multiruns will be less appealing, but will they still be un-appealing? You still get 2-3 run tags in one session without having to deal with multiple run formations or loot splits and get more loot to split over. The advantages are still there. You can still strike a bargain (hey guys, I really need this one. Can we do that AND that despite me already having done Cania? I'll help with that if you help me with Malad). Or, I'll help you with this if you help my X later on layer Y. This will simply be much easier to do than currently. These are primarily upsides to me. Now, I haven't played much in a while so maybe it's different but all my HG career I wished the tag order was not limited, and I had issues with that at times when I wanted to log on.
Sure, it won't make EVERYTHING breezy - the "i already have that" will still be there. The goal is to make that a LESSER issue, not a non-issue.
Now, for the actual issues: Some unpopular runs like Cania might prove to be an issue to find if people don't have to do it in order to do Nessus. Oh wait, we can already do that (writs). I agree that Writs need to be looked into. Maybe just limit them to the +1? (They probably already are?) - i.e you've done every layer except phleg, cania and nessus. You do Nessus with Writ, and you get the tags for Cania+Nessus, but you still need to do Phleg and that finishing that afterwards would grant you your demigod status. Or if you're missing min + phleg, you could do just phleg with writ and get both same as before. Regarding skull/demi attaining: perhaps demihood is now attained after infusing the skull with the blood of all the lords of the 9 layers of hell and taking it all in. Boom, demigod.
For 1st or 2nd demi, I think only the first one should be done in order - but fwiw, on my first playthrough I was doing 0x deep hells on a Stinger Barbarian before being able to tag and I wasn't frustrated yet because I was still in learning mode. More than that I was intimidated about potentially sucking but people encouraged me to come along anyway - but it wouldn't have hurt me to get those tags already on those runs nor impede my learning in them. Same thing on the subsequent Cleric.
Another issue that could rise is that people do simply less hells because they need to repeat layers less. That is both an upside and a downside I suppose.
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Post by TJ on Apr 13, 2020 13:13:56 GMT
Initial thoughts:
Yes, this would be awesome. I think that the first cycle should still have to be done in order though, as the increase in power that you gain/is required as you enter the deeper levels is huge. We ran a full demi cycle this weekend with fresh toons, and it was hugely evident how important it was for these new L55 toons to go in order to gain the XP to get to 60, start collecting BUR gear, and then do the harder/deeper run.
I also believe the Tia and Nessus should be required bookends. This might be an unpopular opinion, but Tia requires the hellstone to start, and Ness is where you reap the most benefits from the asmo artis, secrets, and demi status.
Now for the questions: 1. Does this largely benefit non-core toons/players? As someone who plays a Bard a lot, I can generally call a run and have it fill because I'm starting by covering one of the more coveted cores, allowing people to play/tag whatever they want to. I don't think primarily benefiting non-cores makes this idea not worth it, but I would be concerned that fewer people will have the incentive to build or box core classes. 2. How would Writs work? Gut says use unique power, conversation pops up and you can choose a layer to get the tag for, a la the vestige choice flow. 3. Can/should we limit writs to one per cycle? If someone is lucky/rich enough to farm 7 writs to blow on getting a single toon to demi, that feels fine to me because demi-ing a toon is easy enough with the paragon level power creep that it's far easier to demi a toon than to farm 7 writs. 4. Should progress be restored after reincarnation once you get past x1 now that tags can be done out of order? If we are allowing out of order tagging, it would make sense (to me) to restore your partial cycle tags as it becomes less of a linear progression that gets reset upon reincarnation.
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Post by gladi8or on Apr 13, 2020 13:41:24 GMT
The more I read about this the more I'm against it. The current hell system isn't broken. All you're going to have is a difficult way to manage what hells you need. Right now it works well because your skull tells you what level you need next. It really feels to me we're grasping at straws here: Ok let's do the first cycle in order, then bookend Tia and Nessus afterwards, Toss in a few writs and... What? No, keep it the way it is. Why make things complicated? As I mentioned in my earlier post this is not a fix, there are still going to be individuals who need specific tags outside of what others want or need. You can't avoid this. We are not creating any kind of solution here! I honestly think there are far more important issues for Devs to spend their time on than a system that is fine. And the idea of using 7 writs is awful. I'm sure it would still be one writ per cycle, but if not, talk about a way to ruin the game. It's about progression and it makes sense currently.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 14:13:52 GMT
@ Glad. This problem doesn’t impact you much, if at all and that’s ok. Not every issue everyone has is shared by the entire community. You also represent the outlier. The bulk of your hell runs come from organized guild runs of a tight knit group. The majority of the server, even those in guilds doesn’t operate like the DTs do.
Will this change fix every situation? Adjust every outlier? Or make it extra runs are never needed? No. No ones thinking it will. What this change will do is increase the tagging opportunity of any given player at any given time across the board.
This changes means more chances for character progression, more frequently. This benefits everyone, even you, whether you see it or not. And the skull would be reworked to track your hell progress like it does in abyss. Use the skull and see what you need. Problem solved.
Back on topic.. I think after the initial cycle or two, Tia and Nessus should not be required bookends. Let it truly be any order.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 14:27:39 GMT
Play a druid and all problems solved! 😂
I do wonder if it will make it harder for new hell runners, who have to go in order, to find runs. Older hell running toons would be running random order.
Anyways, two hell layers and people should be living in abyss. Better loot. Better rewards.
Way too much time spent in hells, imo.
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Post by gladi8or on Apr 13, 2020 15:00:36 GMT
Prep, I get what the change makes and there is a benefit to being able to tag on every hell run out of sync. I'm thinking globally here as well. The idea of having an order makes sense. What I'm seeing/reading here is to do the first level in order as it stands, as is suggested in this thread. Afterwards getting tags out of sync would be in place. I get that, but after demi 1 there's no real benefit to more demi iterations because layer penalties are not decreased by demi count but by prince wins. Yes, people will get tags on runs more frequently but if you are stuck at Cania and no one wants to do a Cania aren't you sitting at the same problem as before? What I'm saying is this change doesn't really negate that original problem that you will still need certain tags, regardless. If you already have demi, you don't benefit from the tags afterwards. And it is still on topic.
I agree with Ray's last post here as well.
For the record, regardless of my guild and runs, I still have toons that need tags outside from the one or two toons I use on guild runs for literally months on end to get fully tagged up in abyss and limbo. Pointing out that I'm in a guild that does regular guild runs doesn't make my argument worthless. I have several toons stuck at Tia and/or Dis. This wasn't an argument solely for myself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 18:01:53 GMT
There is significant value in doing the hells post Demi x2. Does that value outweigh benefits given in the Abyss? No. To say that there isn’t any point though is far from the case. +10 to skills is a huge bonus, as are the bonus to stat checks and saves.
There will always be someone who needs one run to go who will need help. This changes makes it easier for people to be willing to help because more toons at eligible to tag at any given point. This helps that situation become less frequent because more people will have toons who gain by helping that person.
New players being shafted will have a minimal impact. At the end of the day people still need all the layers, if they have time they’ll still do multiple runs in a row as they do now. This isn’t some dramatic shift of the hells landscape. All this is, is a significant quality of life change for people to gain more from their time.
New players get on runs when veterans make runs which they’ll continue to do and the new players are set. If randomly everyone on the server is in deep hells and no low hells are happening, this would quickly fix itself because everyone can all tag together and bam, reset their skull and the new people can go. We all have too many toons for this to be a concern though.
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Post by woqued on Apr 13, 2020 18:35:03 GMT
Honestly I did not expect so many people to have doubts about the greatness of this suggestion from Bob. I thought it was a slam dunk nobrainer better for everyone change and been that way for over a decade now, just on the backburner because there were so many other things to do and more so lack of time to do all of the things.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 18:40:23 GMT
Creatures of habit that are afraid of the unknown. This is a win across the board for everyone.
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Post by desocupado on Apr 13, 2020 19:22:57 GMT
Who actually loses anything if there's no order?
I mean people can still do it in order even if it's not obrigatory.
In all honesty I find multiple hell cycles unnecessary. New tags with a 25% spawn chance on each layer, having a mini boss that grants bonuses associated with multiple Demi cycles would make people repeat layers with each character.
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Post by gladi8or on Apr 13, 2020 19:27:59 GMT
Creatures of habit... afraid of the unknown? You make me laugh. I Offered an opinion, thought that's what the forums were for. Sometimes a challenge is a good thing.
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Post by horbag on Apr 13, 2020 21:00:46 GMT
i do not realy see a benifit to this, all i see are people who want something changed so it is easyer for them cause they are tag greedy, how hard is it just to help others when it's needed?.... sure it can suck if you are out of sync on the hell cycle but is that rely such a big problem ? just wait about a week tops and they have to start from tia again, you know it comes back around soon, there are only 9 layers.
problems i see if this is changed:
people will still not get their needed tag as simp stated, they lose their bargaining chip to get that one run they always seem to miss since there are only 9 layers people will not be able to estimate when the next run they need will be at all since it is done random people who don't need the tag will still not come to the run if they don't need the tag writ of passage becomes useless it is just not logical eather! you should do them in order!
i agree with glad 100% do not fix what is not broken just because it would be "easier"!!! just call your own dam runs and if you help others often they will come and help you!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 21:12:12 GMT
It’s not about anything being broken. It’s about improvements. Just because people have the flexibility to tag any order doesn’t mean they’re going to intentionally go out of order! All it means is they now have a higher chance of getting tags when they otherwise were doing the work already and couldn’t due to the system. The hours are going to get put in regardless.
How is this lost on you?
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