Picky Shifter (Sidhe BUR race)

[jelricle]

All,

Okay, I finally finished my demi run and will be reincarnating with my take on the "picky shifter".

Goal when shackled to lvl 40:
    - Max Shifter ability DCs, modulus (minus) one class and polymorph level from rogue splash
    - 127 Rogue skills (DT, OL and Srch) 
    - minimize squishiness as much as possible, so long as those two goals are met

Credit goes to tomaan for the name: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26215/picky-shifter-sh49-d9-r2?page=1&scrollTo=239506I 

Notes:
This is a reincarnation build. When allocating skills and feats, I am taking advantage of:
    - Ignoring playability, pre-lvl 80 (Although I originally reached 60 on a very similar build)
    - My Sidhe sub-race
    - I do not worry about XP penalty (which leaves me at level 78 after reincarnation, so you want the lvl 62 ability to be STR, DEX or INT)
    - Being level 80 and double demi for the extra 6 ability points (giving +3 points in all skills)
    - Owning lvl 40 capped skill focus items for DT, OL and Srch (Are there lvl 40 items with ESF OL, DT or Srch?)
    - Owning a Construct, Outsider or Dragon epode
    - Owning a Wondrous tome of Spell Penetration 
    - Having the WIS artifact

Race: Elf/Sidhe (For able learner)

Starting abilities:  Value On Start Screen/Value After Subrace boost
    - STR: 8/8: (0 points, cost 0) -- 0 from points + 0 from Sidhe
    - DEX: 12/14: (add 2 points, cost 2) -- 2 from points + 2 from elf + 2 from Sidhe
    - CON: 8/10: (add 2 points, cost 2) -- 2 from points - 2 from elf + 2 from Sidhe
    - INT: 16/16:  (add 8 points for a cost of 10) -- 8 from points + 0 from Sidhe
    - WIS: 18/24  (add 10 points for a cost of 16; basically, since Druid forces 3 into WIS, add 7 more points) -- 10 from points + 6 from Sidhe
    - CHA: 8/8 (o points, cost 0) -- 0 from points + 0 from Sidhe


Levels:
    - Class: 10 Druid/69 Shifter/1 Rogue
    - All ability bumps go to Wisdom
1 Druid
    - Skills:
        * 1 Open Lock if you do not have a Skill Focus:Open Lock item (cross class, so 2 points paid)
        * 1 Disable Trap if you do not have a Skill Focus:Disable Trap item (cross class, so 2 points paid)
        * Otherwise 0
    - Feats:
        * Built in feats of note:
            + Armor Proficiency (light, medium, shield)
            + Great Wisdom I and II
            + Hardiness vs. Enchantments
            + Immunity To Sleep
            + Keen Sense (Search mode at all time without changing speed)
            + Low-light Vision
            + Skill Affinities: +2 Listen, Search, Spot)
            + Weapon Proficiency (druid, Elf)
            + Zen Archery (Helps Modron and Kenku forms)
        * Chosen feat:
            + Alertness
2 Druid
3 Druid - Chosen feat: Armor Proficiency (heavy)
4 Druid
5 Druid
6 Druid - Chosen feats: Blind-Fight (To save on Listen skill points, later)
7 Druid
8 Druid
9 Druid
    - Feats:
        * Built in feat of note: Venom Immunity
        * Chosen feat:
            + "Skill Focus:Open Lock" if you do not have a lvl 40 SF:OL item
            + "Skill Focus:Disable Trap" if you have an SF:OL item, but no lvl 40 SF:DT item
            + Otherwise, "Great Fortitude"
10 Druid
11 Shifter - Built in feat of note: Greater Wildshape I (wyrmling shape)
12 Shifter
    - "Skill Focus:Disable Trap" if you have no SF:OL item and no SF:DT item
    - Otherwise, "Lightning reflexes"
13 Shifter - Built in feat of note: Greater Wildshape II
14 Shifter
15 Shifter
    - Built in feat of note: Greater Wildshape III
    - Chosen feat: Skill Focus (Discipline)
16 Shifter
17 Shifter - Built in feat of note: Humanoid Shape
18 Shifter - Chosen feat: Toughness
19 Shifter
20 Shifter - Built in feat of note: Greater Wildshape IV
21 Shifter - Chosen feat: Construct Shape
22 Shifter
23 Shifter - Chosen feat: Outsider Shape
24 Shifter - Class feat: Undead Shape
25 Shifter
26 Shifter - Class feat: Great Wisdom III
27 Shifter - Chosen feat: Great Wisdom IV
28 Shifter
29 Shifter - Class feat: Great Wisdom V
30 Shifter - Chosen feat: Great Wisdom VI
31 Shifter
32 Shifter - Class feat: Great Wisdom VII
33 Shifter - Chosen feat: Great Wisdom VIII
34 Shifter
35 Shifter - Class feat: Great Wisdom IX
36 Shifter - Chosen feat: Great Wisdom X
37 Shifter
38 Shifter - Class feat: Dragon Form
39 Shifter - Chosen feat: Up to you -- Armor Skin? Epic Fortitude or reflexes? Some other skill focus such as Hide? (epic, if you stick 20 points into the skill in earlier levels)
40 Rogue
    - Skills:
        * 42 Disable Trap if you do not have a "Skill Focus:Disable Trap" item (since you would have put a point in at lvl 1) otherwise 43
        * 42 Open Lock if you do not have a "Skill Focus:Open Lock" item (since you would have put a point in at lvl 1) otherwise 43
        * 1 Pick Pocket for fairy spill potion ability
        * 43 Search (It is easy to get an embroidered item for "Skill Focus:Search")
        * 5 Set Trap for extra +2 in "Disable Trap"
        * 40 Tumble
    - Built in feats of note:
        * Sneak Attack (+1d6)
        * Weapon Proficiency (rogue)
42 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Wildshape 1)
45 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Wildshape 2)
48 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Wildshape 3)
51 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Construct 1) (Or Dragon if you have Construct Epode)
54 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Construct 2) (Or Dragon if you have Construct Epode)
57 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Construct 3) (Or Dragon if you have Construct Epode)
60 You will need to use up all cached skill points
    - Skills:
        * 63 Animal Empathy
        * 17 Disable Trap (cross class, so 34 points paid)
        * 20 Open Lock (cross class, so 40 points paid)
        * 17 Search (cross class, so 34 points paid)
        * 46 Hide
            + minus 2 each if you do not have a "SF:OL" and/or "SF:DT" item
            + This should use up your last cached skill point
    - Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Outsider 1) (Or Dragon if you have Outsider Epode)
63 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Outsider 2) (Or Dragon if you have Outsider Epode)
66 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Outsider 3) (Or Dragon if you have Outsider Epode)
69 Chosen Feat: Legendary Form Focus (Undead 1)
72 Chosen Feat: Paragon Form Focus Wild Shape
75 Chosen Feat: Paragon Form Focus Contruct 
78 Chosen Feat: Paragon Form Focus Outsider
80
    - Skills:
        * 17 Hide (plus 2 each if you do not have a "SF:OL" and/or "SF:DT" item)
        * 21 Discipline
            + minus 1 each if you do not have a "SF:OL" and/or "SF:DT" item (Since you would have spent points in them at lvl 1)
            + cross class, so 42 points paid, minus 2 each if you do not have a "SF:OL" and/or "SF:DT" item (due to points you would have spent points in them at lvl 1)
        * 1 Concentration (This should use up your last skill point)

Level Notes:
Feel free to rearrange the legendary and paragon form foci, other than legendary Wildshape foci, as desired.  Choose one form to have only one foci on lvl 69.  Skip one form that you have an epode form, choose three forms for paragon focus (I highly recommend keeping wildshape paragon focus)

Wisdom artifact for +2 WIS and ability to jump up +500 HP

Spell penetration wondrous tome

Results:
1) With no buff or benefit, and in my non shifted form, saves are:
    - Fort: 41  (37 if you needed SF:OL or SF:DT instead of great fortitude at lvl 9 because you have no item with that feat)
    - Ref: 37 (33 if you needed SF:DT at lvl 12 because you had no item with that feat)
    - Will: 54
(add up to 20 to each for skill bonus equipment.  Add up to 6-8 for ability bonus equipment.  Forms give large boosts to Fort and Ref)

2) Primary form DCs when naked are:
    - Medusa Stone Gaze (fort): 55
    - Pixie spill potion (vs spot): 75
    - Harpy Curse: -2 to -3 to saves
    - Basilisk death gaze (fort): 54
    - Minotaur maze (Will): 57
    - Wyvern snatch (Ref): 53
    - Drider Web (Ref): 50
    - Dire Tiger knockdown: 70 AB touch attack with no weapon buffs (ignores armor, shield and natural AC. AB increases for each +1 from weapon or magic)
    - Gelatinous cube disarm (ref): 67 AB touch attack with no weapon buffs.  53 DC
    - Beholder:
        * Dispel Magic cone (will): 56
        * Cold and negative ray 82 AB touch attack with no weapon buffs (ignores armor, shield and natural AC. AB increases for each +1 from weapon or magic)
    - Mindflayer Stun cone (will/mind): 57
    - Manticore Spikes:  46 AB touch attack with no weapon buffs (ignores armor, shield and natural AC. AB increases for each +1 from weapon or magic)
    - Azer Chief:
        * Fire Pulse (Ref/fire): 53
        * Fire Stream: 55
    - Rakshasa: Thunderclap (ref and fort/sonic): 55
    - Death Slaad spittles: Both AB 82 touch 
    - Modron:
        * Paralysis trap (will): 50
        * Pulse trap (ref): 53
    - Marut:
        * chain (ref): 53
        * electric pulse (ref/lightning): 53
    - Iron Golem poison breath (fort/poison): 53
    - Crystal prismatic Spray (ref/positive): 55
    - Stone Golem Rocks (ref): 54
    - Spectre Drain (fort/negative): 76 AB touch, 46 DC 
    - Baelnorn:
        * finger of death (fort/positive): 46
        * sunburst (ref/positive): 47
    - Banshee:
        * Sonic howl (will/sonic): 46
        * death howl (fort/death): 57 
        * Curse Aura: drop of 2-3
    - Dragon Forms:
        * Wing Buffet (ref): 53
        * Breath (ref/element type): 53

Add 1 to any DC if you are wearing an Ego item for the form (Although I have no Outsider ego item.    :_(   )
Add 6-8 for WIS ability boost items of +12 to +16

3) AC
    - 25 AC, naked
    - Forms tend to give 10-20 DEX AC boosts, and often concealment
    - I am at ~105-125 equipped and/or in various forms

4) Final Abilities
    - Base:
        * STR: 14
        * DEX: 20
        * CON: 16
        * INT: 22
        * WIS: 62  
        * CHA: 14
    - Boosts:
        * +12-16 for equipment, depending on shackling
        * Forms boost STR and DEX a lot.

5) 882 HP, naked
    - 1,062 with +12 boost
    - 1,102 with +16 boost
    - +500 HP from WIS artifact

6) Skills:
    - 127 OL, DT and Srch when boosted by gear, abilities and feat items
    - Hide is at 100 naked but demix5 boosted, and jumps to 127 in most dex forms?
    - Spot is 34, naked but demix5 boosted
    - Animal Empathy is 75 naked but demix5 boosted
    - Tumble is 50 naked (40 assigned to it for AC boost)



    

Reincarnating this weekend to give it a try!!!!!!!

[magecat]

Do you know what your end game saves are?

I ask because you have all three of the save enhancers in your pre-Epics, and, if any one of your Fortitude, Reflex or Will saves are sufficient, you could swap to SF: (OL or Tumble)

[jelricle]

*** Correction to post, below***
If I drop a single point into OL or DT, then I can take skill focus in that skill
************
Skill Focus: Open Lock and Tumble are not available during any of the level ups. Open Lock is not a Druid or Shifter class skill. It is only available during Rogue levels.

Unfortunately, the rogue splash is at level 40, to minimize cross class skill point payments, and there is no feat at level 40

Additionally, all the post lvl-20 epic feats need to be used on shifter forms and WIS increases.

So the only option for the rogue splash, which would allow SF OL is . . . level 18? That would double the cost of all OL, DT and Srch skill increases from 19 to 40 (chewing up . . . 63 skill points that I can no longer use for concentration, hide, parry or whatever)

If there are any shifter or Druid feats, you think would be good, I could swap out the save boosts. 

[Yojimbo]

In the NWN wiki I don't see any restriction for Open Lock listed have you double checked this?
nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Skill_focus


Listen Over 60 > Blind Fight but while many might object it is a skill I am willing to drop as long as either A) I don't melee or B) I have blind fight

[jelricle]

Okay, I think I am going to put the remaining skill points in hide and discipline.

30 in Hide to get concealment from camouflage
50 in Discipline (for 25 points of discipline)

I have blind fighting, so I do not need listen
I could get, at most, 30 in parry, which only gives a 5% reduction to critical hits. I think I am better off having that in Hide to stop from getting hit in the first place
I am not going to be getting multiples of 40 into Craft Armor, so that is not worth it for AC
Most of the form abilities I use are not disruptable, and the ones that are disruptable are usually being cast during a safe time or from a safe location, so I am going to sacrifice concentration.

Additionally, I am going to sacrifice a second Shifter DC so that I can get OL up to 127.     :_(

*whew* Now I just need the guts to pull the trigger and reincarnate, accepting that I might be stuck for 3 months with a build of limitted playability! :-D

[jelricle]

Oct 9, 2023 16:37:07 GMT Yojimbo said:

In the NWN wiki I don't see any restriction for Open Lock listed have you double checked this?
nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Skill_focus


Listen Over 60 > Blind Fight but while many might object it is a skill I am willing to drop as long as either A) I don't melee or B) I have blind fight

During each level with a feat, skill focus OL never showed up as a possibility.
I will check again.

[Yojimbo]

I do note that the wiki says usable skill not certain on OL if it is usable prior to putting points or having a level of rogue.

[jelricle]

All,
Y'know, I am almost always in a shifter form.
If I skip Blooded and LSA Tumble, and take Legendary Form Defense, instead, I will gain 63 more skill points and an additional starting feat (Luck of the heroes?  Is there a discipline starting feat?) for essentially a net loss of 1 AC (-4 AC when not shifted, but still . . .)

Also, my Will save is pretty high.  I think Skill Focus (discipline) for +3 discipline (equivalent to the cost of 6 skill points) might be better than Iron Will (+2 Will save)

I think those would be worth it.

Any thoughts?

[magecat]

Oct 9, 2023 18:59:32 GMT Yojimbo said:

I do note that the wiki says usable skill not certain on OL if it is usable prior to putting points or having a level of rogue.

nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Skill_focus

Notes mentions using SF: Perform as long as you have Bard levels. I expect OL would be the same in regard Roguish classing.

That said, if you have any wiggle room in your Legendary Levels, you could go for one of the Focus feats there.

[Methes]

Iirc you have to have at least some points in the skill you want to have Skill Focus feat for. Not sure how many, you'd have to try. But you cannot take it for a skill you have zero points in.

[jelricle]

Oct 9, 2023 21:09:14 GMT Methes said:

Iirc you have to have at least some points in the skill you want to have Skill Focus feat for. Not sure how many, you'd have to try. But you cannot take it for a skill you have zero points in.

I just tested.  I was able to get SF: discipline, even though I had not put any points into it (and discipline is cross class)

I think OL is like Perform (D'oh! I have not tested putting in one point in OL to see if SF:OL appears in the next feat level)

[jelricle]

Okay, any thoughts on my level 1 feat?

Dodge?
Luck of the heroes?
Skill focus: parry?
Skill focus: Hide?

[chainlink]

I believe you know my feelings on this build but either way there is no point taking Luck of Heroes on a Wisdom based character, if you were to take a save enabler feat at level 1 it should be Strong Soul then swap to Dauntless (+1 to Fort and Reflex) using !charedit assuming you are going to take the relevant legendary saves feat (+5 to two saves that are weaker vs +3 to all three).

[chirality]

skipping listen to take blind fight when it's a class skill that you can invest at 1:1 and without any cost for qualifier makes no sense, not to mention it's a wis-based toon anyway.

you should definitely take expertise.

sf: ae is also an obvious choice, but keep in mind you can't actually take it on a shifter level, only druid or ranger.

your build is not broken down in a way that makes it easy to see which feats you picked, and at which level. feedback would be less effort with some re-organizing. are you sure you haven't been trying to take sf:ol on a level where you aren't eligible for a general feat? there is no skill rank prereq. i don't think it requires being taken on a rogue level, unlike sf:umd which does need to be taken on a bard or rogue level. therefore the reason you haven't been able to select it must be due to another issue.

instead of putting your !list level, list the actual build itself.

[boroie]

Oct 10, 2023 13:21:18 GMT chirality said:

you should definitely take expertise.

Overrated IMO. It works if you are standing still breathing like a dragon or in golem form, but if moving around and using medusa, banshee, basilisk etc then its a waste of a feat and action economy. I took it on one shifter and never used it, then never took it on any other shifters I made and they have done multiple hell/abyss cycles, limbo, etc.