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Post by jelricle on Oct 10, 2023 21:28:24 GMT
Yeah, expertise and improved expertise are pointless for me. I move around way too much.
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Post by chirality on Oct 10, 2023 21:47:22 GMT
i didn't mean it's "definitely" a feat any shifter must take, but given his list of "spare" feats, i would "definitely" take it. we're talking about competing options such as sf:hide...
if you're never staying stationary for long enough to benefit from expertise, you're spending too much time repositioning.
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Post by jelricle on Oct 10, 2023 22:15:41 GMT
skipping listen to take blind fight when it's a class skill that you can invest at 1:1 and without any cost for qualifier makes no sense, not to mention it's a wis-based toon anyway. So how much benefit is listen over blind fight? I need skill points more than pre-epic feats, atm. I figure that taking blind fight saves me 40 listen skill points, which can go into discipline.
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Post by jelricle on Oct 10, 2023 22:23:14 GMT
your build is not broken down in a way that makes it easy to see which feats you picked, and at which level. feedback would be less effort with some re-organizing. are you sure you haven't been trying to take sf:ol on a level where you aren't eligible for a general feat? there is no skill rank prereq. i don't think it requires being taken on a rogue level, unlike sf:umd which does need to be taken on a bard or rogue level. therefore the reason you haven't been able to select it must be due to another issue. instead of putting your !list level, list the actual build itself. Yes, sorry about that. I will restructure the first post, once I actually decide on all the levels. Basically, this build is druid and shifter up to 39, so any feat can go at any level (Rogue splash is at 40 but there is no feat at 40) Open lock requires training, so maybe if I put a sacrificial pre-rogue point into it, I can take the SF:OL feat later. At the moment, SF:OL is not available for any druid or shifter levels, but I hadn't put any points into it before level 40.
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Post by jelricle on Oct 11, 2023 4:07:49 GMT
Posted the final build in the first message.
Reincarnating this weekend to give it a whirl!
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Post by chainlink on Oct 11, 2023 6:55:21 GMT
skipping listen to take blind fight when it's a class skill that you can invest at 1:1 and without any cost for qualifier makes no sense, not to mention it's a wis-based toon anyway. So how much benefit is listen over blind fight? I need skill points more than pre-epic feats, atm. I figure that taking blind fight saves me 40 listen skill points, which can go into discipline. Here's the information highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/15107
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Post by chirality on Oct 11, 2023 13:22:06 GMT
i would advise reconsidering your subrace and/or starting stats so you can max your skills appropriately. you are sacrificing quite a bit to maintain max dc + rug skills. that disc and conc is a problem.
the go-to subrace for difficult-to-pull-off picker builds is undying, and for good reason.
given that you're assuming 80 x2 reinc for the build anyway, giving up anarch +6 wis in exchange for a more well-rounded build using undying would still net you a dc that's more than suitable for all areas of the game.
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Post by chainlink on Oct 11, 2023 14:34:25 GMT
i would advise reconsidering your subrace and/or starting stats so you can max your skills appropriately. you are sacrificing quite a bit to maintain max dc + rug skills. that disc and conc is a problem. the go-to subrace for difficult-to-pull-off picker builds is undying, and for good reason. given that you're assuming 80 x2 reinc for the build anyway, giving up anarch +6 wis in exchange for a more well-rounded build using undying would still net you a dc that's more than suitable for all areas of the game. Agreed and Drow Noble isn't a bad call either if you want to keep +6 Wis and also get +4 Int.
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Post by Yojimbo on Oct 11, 2023 15:14:03 GMT
If this build isn't going to melee or use physical attacks Anarch is only providing 3 worthwhile features: Alterness (Shifter prerequiste), Armor Skin(A Good but not always needed feat), and +6 WIS(Form DC).
You already indicate you have some spare pre-LL feats so not difficult to fit Alertness in the build. You talk about being mobile and indicate a more caster style play so how much is AC really worth? There are plenty of options to get a high WIS bonus so no need to limit yourself to Anarch for the DC boost.
Some Race Options: Rilmani could be something with the ESF: AE Female Drow Noble adds +4 INT & 5+Level SR Sidhe frees up 2 Epic Feats from 2 free Great Wisdom
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Post by jelricle on Oct 11, 2023 23:04:47 GMT
If only I had a drow noble book . . . *hint* ;-) I actually once saw one in the split, but I missed it by one spot. :_(
I am most definitely not a melee'er, but I need AC, etc to run around (and away) without getting curb stomped. Oh my goodness, I have Sidhe!!! I think I just grabbed it on principle a la "Gotta catch them all". I hadn't noticed the Greater Wisdom feats! If only Zen Archery applied to ranged touch attacks. Still, I can have fun with Kenku and modron. Plus, that dex boost might let me keep my full 18 starting WIS!
Undying would certainly solve my skill point issues, but I hate to give up another 2 points of shifter DC (I am already down 2 DC from my primary power shifter build) As it is, with my primary build, after I sing a curse, it still sometimes takes a couple of shots to paralyze Cornies and their task masters with the Marut chain. Ditto disarming pit fiends (Some Aspirants seem completely immune!)
Ooooo, but now I have a new dream. Previously, I dreamt of a lythari XR book, but you made me realize that Lolth touched could be even better is certain circumstances!
I would miss Anarch's fast walk, but that is just because I am impatient and lazy!
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Post by boroie on Oct 11, 2023 23:16:31 GMT
i didn't mean it's "definitely" a feat any shifter must take, but given his list of "spare" feats, i would "definitely" take it. we're talking about competing options such as sf:hide... if you're never staying stationary for long enough to benefit from expertise, you're spending too much time repositioning. Or you are way to static and playing as a tank. Shifters are supposed to be mobile, not front line. They are the ultimate auxiliary and support toon in any party. Sure if you are soloing then standing still makes sense, otherwise it absolutely does not. How do you medusa or death everything while static with a limited gaze range?
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Post by boroie on Oct 11, 2023 23:18:28 GMT
If only I had a drow noble book . . . *hint* ;-) Undying works amazing if you don't like DC
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Post by chirality on Oct 11, 2023 23:56:41 GMT
Or you are way to static and playing as a tank. Shifters are supposed to be mobile, not front line. They are the ultimate auxiliary and support toon in any party. Sure if you are soloing then standing still makes sense, otherwise it absolutely does not. How do you medusa or death everything while static with a limited gaze range? you missed the point, which is rather about shapes other than medusa or basilisk in the first place. soloing has nothing to do with it. obviously shapes that you use 1-2 abilities for stone/death gaze, and then reposition, in the temporary role of instakill/cc, aren't getting much benefit from expertise. on the other hand, using a shape that spams damage or poison shouldn't require repositioning after picking a good spot, and will then stay there spamming, which is where expertise comes in handy. your comment of being too static playing as a tank doesn't even comport with the next line that shifters are not supposed to be front line. if that's the case, why compare them to playing a tank at all? if your shifter can't tank, and has to constantly reposition...that's kind of the problem which expertise helps with. you're focusing narrowly on shapes that specifically aren't and don't need to be "front line," while conveniently ignoring the other shapes that either are or can be. what exactly do you do with your shifter in a boss fight? just keep running around in a circle? there are many ways of playing of course, and a similar argument could be made regarding druids and combat casting. if you only play a druid as a kamikaze nb bot/reposition-then-run, then you might not care to bother using cc. i would still offer a similar response, which is that you're spending too much time repositioning. i also understand that when multiboxing, it's much more difficult to play shifter period, and far less useful to bother using shapes that spam damage in most overpowered parties. in runs like this, you don't need to do much other than run around death gazing or stoning and then ignore the shifter until it's needed again. however, jelricle doesn't multibox, so that concern goes out the window. finally, this build's likely fragility compared to standard shifter does not compare very favorably. with disc and conc so low i would want as little chance of being hit as possible, which is where extra ac from expertise comes in handy. i would not expect this build to last very long in an abo spawn even spamming stone/poison from relative safety, let alone actually tanking while doing so, which is what shifters are traditionally able to do. tldr expertise isn't a must-have but it's a nice option to have and improves the ability of shifter to function more effectively as a tank. i don't agree that shifter is the ultimate auxiliary and support toon. it's neither auxiliary nor support. it's a core that does core things and tanks when not doing core things. if shifter is played only as auxiliary support, then of course your primary concern is using 1-2 death/stone gazes and then repositioning, and then when that's done probably focusing on another toon, which is fine, but that's only using half the tools in the toolbox. again, the other half of tools may not be very useful or relevant when multiboxing and/or when dragged by op dps, but i also didn't see any other spare feat options which would be better than expertise. like, if you can, why would you not?
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Post by jelricle on Oct 12, 2023 2:43:15 GMT
I HAS A DRAGON FORM!!!! Sidhe ftw! Thanks, Jimbo!
Starting Stats: - DEX 14 (add 2 points for a cost of 2) - CON 10 (add 2 points for a cost of 2) - WIS 18 (add 10 points for a cost of 16; basically, since Druid forces 3 into WIS, add 7 more points) - INT 16 (add 8 points for a cost of 10)
Level Changes: - Level 1 feat: Alertness - Level 9 feat: * SF:OL if you do not have an SF:OL item * SF:DT if you have SF:OL, but no SF:DT item * Great Fortitude, otherwise - Level 12 feat: * SF:DT if you have no SF:OL item and no SF:DT item * Lightning reflexes, otherwise - Level 28 feat: DRAGON FORM!!! - Level 29 feat: Whatever you want -- Armor Skin? Epic Fortitude or reflexes? Some other skill focus (epic, if you stick 20 points into the skill in earlier levels) - Level 63 feat: Legendary Form Focus: Undead (I needs me my Vampire GS!) - Level 66 feat: Legendary Form Focus: Dragon - Level 69 feat: Legendary Form Focus: Dragon
New Notes: - Undead epode is no longer useful, unles you want to lose foci in one of the other forms
New Results: - HP: 999 base, 1239 with +12 buff - Saves: * Fort: 39 * Ref:35 * Will: 53 * Bonuses: + Add up to 20 for skill bonus equipment. + Add up to 6-8 for ability bonus equipment and such. + Shapes tend to buff Fort and Ref - Shifter DCs: * Minus 6 DC for undead forms (Basilisk always was stronger than banshee wail, and spectre touch never seemed to work well enough) * Dragon: 49 wing buffet (55 buffed. Is that good enough for the various fumes?)
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Post by chainlink on Oct 12, 2023 8:51:51 GMT
If only I had a drow noble book . . . *hint* ;-) I actually once saw one in the split, but I missed it by one spot. :_( I am most definitely not a melee'er, but I need AC, etc to run around (and away) without getting curb stomped. Oh my goodness, I have Sidhe!!! I think I just grabbed it on principle a la "Gotta catch them all". I hadn't noticed the Greater Wisdom feats! If only Zen Archery applied to ranged touch attacks. Still, I can have fun with Kenku and modron. Plus, that dex boost might let me keep my full 18 starting WIS! Undying would certainly solve my skill point issues, but I hate to give up another 2 points of shifter DC (I am already down 2 DC from my primary power shifter build) As it is, with my primary build, after I sing a curse, it still sometimes takes a couple of shots to paralyze Cornies and their task masters with the Marut chain. Ditto disarming pit fiends (Some Aspirants seem completely immune!) Ooooo, but now I have a new dream. Previously, I dreamt of a lythari XR book, but you made me realize that Lolth touched could be even better is certain circumstances! I would miss Anarch's fast walk, but that is just because I am impatient and lazy! I did say to you previously that Lythari isn't much (if at all) an upgrade over the BUR races (especially when you take into account the flexibility Any Race gives you). I've made shifters with Lythari, Killoren & Verdant Prince and there is minimal difference between them in terms of final functionality, same DC (1 more than a BUR race with +6 Wisdom) no additional Legendary or Paragon forms over the BUR build.
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